Tiger Paw LP12 with Lingo 4 vs Radikal

:small_blue_diamond:Yes…And it makes a big difference.

:small_orange_diamond:It’s nonsense.!!

Linn says a lot now for the time,.that is not true.
They are looking for new customer-groups,.who do not understand what we are talking about here.

If Linn would say that their products must be “burn-in”,or as you say “running in”.
Then these new customer-groups would think that the product was defective.

So strange it has become.

/Peder🙂

I often wonder how much running in is not the actual kit but the user getting used to a new sound and their expectations associated with buying it.

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Yes, I have often considered that over the years and I believe it’s usually a little bit of both.
In some cases perhaps it might be argued that the running in of HiFi equipment is overstated and a convenient myth to peddle to someone disapointed with a purchase, “Oh, well you need to give it a few weeks to warm up n run in…”
That said, I don’t think many here would argue that Naim equipment for example does require a period of “warming up” whether from new or after being powered down. It’s also widely accepted that most HiFi performs best when left powered up.
In my case here, as I tried to explain earlier I did find the Radikal with Keel something of a “musical culture shock” which has challenged me to reassess my expectation and perception of how the modern LP12 sounds. This must be the effect of the Keel as I didn’t experience the same feelings when auditioning the Radikal on my LP12 with standard sub chassis.
The Keel per se is unlikely to improve in SQ over time, it’s just a machined billet of aluminium. From a mechanical engineering point of view, if not electronic, the moving parts of the Radikal, Motor, Pully, Belt etc could reasonably be expected to “run in” over time and thus effect sound quality.
So, yes my perception of the sound has changed, but having readjusted to that, the dramatic leap in performance I heard over the last weekend was altogether different. I cant reach any explanation other than believe it must be the effect of the Radikal “Warming up, running in” call it what you will.

:grinning:

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Well the new motor certainly runs in. When I swapped from Akurate to Klimax Radikal it was a requirement to have a new motor too. Unfortunately my first one was noisy, so prior to swapping it over, Peter took the replacement motor and ran it for a full week to soak test it. This motor is silent.

I too think the Radikal takes a bit of expectation adjustment, but that’s because there’s just more information retrieval (at least that’s what I think is going on). It also delivers a reduced noise floor (even relative to the Kore, which I had before as an interim stage).

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Hi @Matteo (or anyone else) - what exactly is the “white paper test”?

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Basically, a strip of paper placed between the inside of the Trampolin foot and the bottom of the motor housing. When reassembled and deck loaded if the paper can be slid out, the motor and foot are not touching.
:grinning:

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Ah! Thanks!

Enjoy the reading

M

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I have said this for years, although it falls on deaf ears. The Keel makes the biggest difference.

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Hi Count,
Not sure I would agree that its a bigger difference. It’s a different difference if that makes sense. It certainly makes you realise the colouration present in the sound pre Keel. The effect, or perhaps more correctly the non effect, as it seems to be totally neutral and transparent is quite profound.
:grinning:

I still remember the day I put on The Who - Won’t Get Fooled Again, after I had the Keel installed. It played totally different. Not a typical upgrade difference, just totally different, as if a live band was there.

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To be honest, and if you read my initial comments after first hearing the Radikal with Keel. I didn’t immediately get it. At first I felt I was missing the euphony of the sound pre Keel, but as I adjusted to the shock, I started to get what it wasn’t doing.

Kind of apt that your first choice was Won’t get fooled again
:grin:

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I think this gets to the heart of the matter. The pre Cirkus LP12 was all bloom to my ears. I bought a Roksan instead. It had a much cleaner presentation. The Klimax LP12 takes this to another level in my view. More accurate for sure but also involving. There is a romantic version of vinyl and a cleaner version that I personally enjoy. Some liken this to a more digital sound but I don’t agree with that analysis.

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I agree 100% Stuart.

I’ve also heard some describing the sound of the modern LP12 as more digital, but when listening to a genuinely AAA mastered LP there cannot be anything “Digital” about it.

I still recall getting my LP12 back from the dealer having had the Cirkus fitted to try (It had only just recently been launched but cant remember the year) and being blown away by the difference and improvement in the sound, I like a lot of music with rhythm, bass & swing (PRaT) like Reggae, Jazz, Blues n Soul and remember describing the sound at the time as though a trapdoor had opened up in the floor and all the "noise falling through it leaving just the music behind and allowing the lower registers of the music to extend way down.

The effect of the Cirkus on reflection was as you allude, cleaner more transparent and neutral and very similar to the Keel (but with the Keel more so). I do also recall that their were detractors at the time who didn’t like this neutrality, claiming it sounded clinical preferring the cozy and more rose tinted presentation.
My spec at the time if I recall correctly was Valhalla, Akito, K9.
I recall hearing around this time a Roxsan Xerxes, Artemiz, Shiraz but don’t remeber what I thought of it. I also heard a Michell ( again cant quite recall which model, I think Gyrodec), no offence to any Michell users here, but if you thought the Linn had bloom, by comparison to my ears this really was coloured and Rose tinted, I remember thinking to myself this sounds weird.
:smile:

I still hear of people preferring the pre Cirkus bearing which of course is fair enough. The bass used to ‘boing’ rather than stop and start. Pleasant enough in itself, just not my cuppa at the time. I think what Linn and Naim do for me is entertain. I am not interested in accuracy per se, just relax and enjoy music with a glass of something tasty!

Stu

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I didn’t realise the Bass in some Reggae music could stop and start until hearing it on the post Cirkus LP12 :joy:

Not meaning to denigrate anyone who prefers the more vintage LP12 sound. Everyone to their own. My using words like cozy and rose tinted is just meant as a way of trying to describe the different presentations.
:+1:

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I think i’am who prefer the colorful sound of the vintage products. However, I recently changed the motor, belt and oil, the result is excellent, with more precision and a disappearance of the background noise.

Maybe the service of the old parts is losing the sweet side muddy and unbalanced of the vintage LP12?

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Hi Crifo,
You say you prefer the vintage sound but you also seem to be describing the sound as muddy and unbalanced?
Anyway, LP12’s as I’m sure your aware do benefit from regular servicing and set up, usually every two or three years, especially vintage spec LP12’s I believe.
If you haven’t had a service in a long time the sound has probably slowly degraded over time, you’ve got accustomed to it, then it appears like a big change when performance is restored.
I think I noticed on another thread that you were using a third party motor and belt? The Linn belt is arguably very expensive, but its right for the LP12, using anything else is probably false economy and won’t perform correctly. There’s more to a drive belt than just a loop of rubber.
Enjoy
:grinning:

I did not speak well on the sound “vintage” muddy and unbalanced …

I should have said, the sound of an old, maintenance free product that has deteriorated.

My old motor was a 35-year-old original, but it’s true that the belt was a Thakker.

Today, I would no longer make the mistake of having a generic product, because I have proof that it is not the same, even for the oil used. :blush:

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Actually Crifo, I think itsme who misread your comment.
In case your not aware, the Linn belt can sound different dependant on how it’s oriented. Try listening and then turning the belt inside out, then back to front.

:grinning: