I’d agree, but gents like us with a room full of boxes are in the minority and a dying breed it seems
I’d suspect nDAC/555 is streets ahead.
I’d agree, but gents like us with a room full of boxes are in the minority and a dying breed it seems
I’d suspect nDAC/555 is streets ahead.
Well, vinyl made a strong comeback - maybe (vintage Naim) separates will too.
Same price, new for new?
Given a list price of £10k for the two electronics items still made, and £1,200 for the two cables, I suspect Jimdog’s comparing second hand prices for the older kit, or you can get an NDAC and 52 (presumably with Supercap though not mentioned) for £200.
52s tend to go £3,500-£4,500 second hand (assuming you want a power supply to make it work), NDACs are at around £1,500, ND5XS2 £2,000 (based on current listings for the latter 2), so £7-8k for the electronics plus £500 for the cables s/hand gives you the saving against new list prices of recently launched kit. If you buy new this would cost several thousand more.
Yes, second hand.
Hi Jan
Looking at the Ti data sheet(s) as stephen_tate pointed out shows the PCM1792A in the NDX2 has a much higher SNR than the PCM1791A found in the 222. There are other areas where the 1792a also achieves higher quality. The 1792a in the NDX2 is much closer in spec to the 1704 (which is no longer in production) found in the nd555.
The 1791a is found to great effect in the unity Nova and ND5 xs2. I imagine a nova with a NC 250 would be a good upgrade to separates in the future when a stand alone streamer and preamp become available.
By all accounts it’s the same dac chip.
The DAC chip isn’t necessarily the whole story though, I dug out the basis/rationale for my probably a bit over the top/bold statements, and replied to the post you quote above
Possibly the DAC chip is the same, I didn’t actually check that, but the implementation is different, I assume. This post was the basis for my comment: In that thread I’ve posted a few times about the context within which the 1791A and 1792A (the DAC chip in the NDX2) operate. Depending where you draw the line, the NDX2, from the interior shots of it, is clearly a dramatically different DAC board than the ND5 XS2. Reading between a few lines, it looks like the DAC board/section/whatever in th…
On the plus side the NSC222 has a better volume control implementation, and can be improved by an external PSU. On the minus side (as with any integrated solution) there’s a lot of electronics crammed into a single box.
My point was that the NSC222 seems to be a pretty good Naim streamer, a pretty good Naim headphone amp and a pretty good Naim pre-amp. In a single box. That, in the context of a Naim system at least, represents fair VFM in my opinion
And I should say, I haven’t heard one! I’m just mildly curious if it is worth considering one, rather than a ND5 XS2. I was surprised to read about the similarities between it and the Atom HE, and that fact changed my opinion about its perceived value for the better.
The DAC chip isn’t necessarily the whole story though, I dug out the basis/rationale for my probably a bit over the top/bold statements, and replied to the post you quote above
To 222 or not 222? - #20 by gthack
On the plus side the NSC222 has a better volume control implementation, and can be improved by an external PSU. On the minus side (as with any integrated solution) there’s a lot of electronics crammed into a single box.
My point was that the NSC222 seems to be a pretty good Naim streamer, a pretty good Naim headphone amp and a pretty good Naim pre-amp. In a single box. That, in the context of a Naim system at least, represents fair VFM in my opinion
And I should say, I haven’t heard one! I’m just mildly curious if it is worth considering one, rather than a ND5 XS2. I was surprised to read about the similarities between it and the Atom HE, and that fact changed my opinion about its perceived value for the better.
My observations were made having done some further reading following an interesting demo of the New Classic combo compared to (ND5 xs2, SN3) and a full (ndx2 282 nsp300) system all into same speakers and using my own playlist. Ears 1st principle.
I fully admit to being an armchair commentator only at this point I would love to have a listen to the new kit. When I think I’m getting close to being in a purchasing position then I think I’ll darken a dealer’s door. I wouldn’t have previously considered a streaming pre-amp, so this thread, and the details of the NSC shared by Naim staff, have probably changed my audition plans!
110dB/Steve Sells wrote on main Naim Classic thread:
“As a headphone amplifier NSC 222 is better than Atom HE. (better DAC, filter and volume sections).”
My observations…
I thought I’d read that whole thread, but just found your review comments! Interesting stuff, ta for posting them
Comparing DAC chips doesn’t make complete sense unless you take into account how they have been implemented and the DSP applied. Only listening will tell the full story.
@garcon compared recently the Atom HE vs 222, both into SN3. He hardly could find real differences. So the streamers inside both seem to be at similar level.
I wouldn’t put much value on that comparison.
I think I recall reading the comparison, and being slightly unsure about how things were connected up. Is that the basis for your caution?
It’s a jalopy set up overall but yeah, cables and Chris mentioned the grounding as well. It’s not an ideal or intended use set up so the comparison is not of much value imo.
I’m not even considering a NSC222 but I would not worry about the DAC as they (mass produced 3rd party ones at least) are all as cheap as chips (pun intended). Implementation is the key thing. Naim know how to get the best from whatever they decide to use.
Well on top of that, these types of items are not priced on cost-plus anyway. That’s for things like bags of flour and Mars bars. They are priced according to market parity to ensure the price reflects the comparative worth with other items on the market and then the impact of their running costs factored in after that. You would actually make less money selling some items cheap even if you could.
As a simple exercise, pretend for a moment that Naim found the magic sauce and that a 222 costs just $1 to make including all parts, labour and overheads. So at $2 you could make 100% profit. If the rest of the market like Linn, Devialet and so on are selling their streamers for $12,000 it would appear like Naim would demolish the competition. They might. But the market for the item itself is limited. Sure they would mop up the low end of the market too and everything in between but the rest of the world buying iPhone docking stations etc isn’t interested. So they sell a whopping 1 million units at $2 each and make… $2 million (only half as profit). But Linn, with their $12,000 streamer only have to sell 170 units to reach the same milestone. Clearly, irrespective of costs, Naim would be better off pricing the unit much (much much) higher; selling far less units; and making a lot more profit.
In other words, if the market value of something is high, you will make more money selling at market value. Most luxury items cost very little to make. Their materials are superior but not 10x the cost of standard materials. More care and knowledge and experience goes into them making their high cost worthwhile to the buyer.
This is for the most part true. However, the cost of high quality capacitors can be 100s of times the price of a standard unit.
I’m not worried And was trying to explain, in numerous posts (e.g To 222 or not 222? - #2 by gthack) in this thread, exactly that the implementation context was also important, and also quoting posts from Naim staff about it. Somehow it looks like everyone now thinks I’m obsessed about the DAC chips X)
Genuinely appreciate the reply though
For the record, I absolutely agree that the implementation is important :someComplicatedEmojiDenotingFirmAgreementWhilstAlsoPointingOutThatISaidAsMuchInTheFirstResponseToTheOP:
Speaking of the OP, sadly they’ve left the forum too