Toe In

I hadn’t made the point very well, so thanks for making me clarify

1 Like

Absolutely, this affects more or less all subjective listening checks too, unless you get your ears in the same place as the previous test run, you can hear differences caused by the speaker dispersion and not the equipment change. My room has a bad bass peak at 49Hz at of all places my usual seating position. moving forward in my chair reduces the bass sound a fair bit.

This checked out confirming my listening experiences using a calibrated Mic and REW.

2 Likes

I’ve done the same test with REW!

My setup is slightly detuned to make it a bit less critical of head positioning so as to give more consistency when listening (I’d actually done this by listening before confirming the result with REW - it turns out I’d got it about right).

My room’s bass peak was 48Hz, and the change of listening position was 500mm forward, we seem to have a similar issue and the same ameliorating response

1 Like

I found the REW room simulator surprisingly accurate for this too.

1 Like

Yes exactly the same!

1 Like

Me too!

It helped a LOT with finding candidate positions for the sub. Then measuring the actual response and doing listening tests confirmed the right solution. Repeating measuring and listening test could then fine tune it and setup the crossover. The result was just SO MUCH better than trying to do it all by ear.

1 Like

In the case of this bass peak, what surprised me was that relatively small movements of ‘the listener’ could make a big difference in the amplitude of the peak.

REW certainly helps you to visualise why moving makes so much difference. I recommend the REW simulation function even if you do not have a Mic. The programme is relatively intuitive, (it must be I have figured it out) and is free to use

1 Like

Getting the right toe in is an art that’s learnt over time.
When I first started with fine fiddling, I would use a good recording to dial things in, then only to play another good recording and find things way out askew - with the fuss of going back to reposition the speakers.
I found this very frustrating and distracted from relaxing into the music.
Only over some time did I get to find the sweet spot area where things are 80% effective for 80% of the time.
Then, of course - just when you think you have a measure of the systems abilities - put on a really great recording that makes you want to reevaluate toe in. Such is the joy of this hobby.

2 Likes

Totally dependent on speaker design as many have said, I have two extremes, Guru QM10’s are in favour of plenty of toe in where you can see the outside of the speaker from the listening chair and Kef Ls50 Meta’s that prefer straight ahead. Others I’ve owned in between all varied dependent on room, mirrored tweeters, loads of variables.

This is much some what involved considering every speaker has a different dispersion pattern
and amplitude response. The Design principals have all ready been carried out.
We now as they say play the hand you have been dealt.
Perhaps someone would like to cover Bose 901s which fire towards the rear wall and the
side corners? I am sure someone sees a point to this discussion i guess i am still learning it.

1 Like

I had a pair as my first real speakers, driven by an A60 and later a Linn Majik and Linn source. Universally hated in hifi circles but I confess that I loved their scale and bass. And of course positioning is easy as is the design intent.

I doubt anyone who dislikes them has actually heard them or perhaps only heard them with low end Bose sources and amps.

A friend of mine had 901s till not too long ago. Driven by some fat Parasound amp. No high-end sound whatsoever but boy they had bass, power and scale. Very impressive given their age. :slight_smile:

I freely admit to having spent some hard earned pocket money on a set of Bose 301’s. They were rather good re positioning in my rather cramped one bed flat at the time. Reflectors actually worked.

Possible they were not configured right on the active crossover or the wall was not substantial enough. I went from series IV 90s (1973) to Linn Keilidhs and there certainly wasn’t a “wow, I’ve been missing top end all this time” moment.

I actually kept them and had 2 systems for ages. The 901s ended up as the fronts in a 5.1 system.

There is also toe up and toe down to consider.
As well as making sure your toes are square.

2 Likes

Toe-in depends on the listening distance, reverberation/reflection in the room, distance from side walls (early reflections etc) and how the loudspeaker is distributing energy into the room - this is often published for PA and professional products with a polar response plot, but not always for hifi products, and it does vary, even with dome-type HF and mid frequency drivers assumed to have wide (180 degree) dispersion which often have small waveguides for pattern control. Human perception of mid-to-high frequency energy is dependent upon the reverberant field as well direct - we naturally filter out reflections to a certain point, after which it becomes noticeable. A good example of this is anyone who records a voice message on an inexpensive answering machine will generally hear a bit of an echo on the recording, whereas we don’t generally hear that echo in the same room when we speak to each other. One reason standards like ISO2960 and SMPTE 222M for equalisation of sound mixing rooms for film and tv exist with a roll-off at high frequencies to compensate for the fact that a measurement mic will receive and convey direct+reflected with steady-state pink noise, whereas the listener mainly hears the direct sound. In a domestic environment, I normally point the speakers at the listening position and then toe out if necessary having had a listen!

3 Likes

This topic was automatically closed 60 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.