Two-box streamer-amp recommendation

Hi-Fi Corner
21

I used to own B&W 805s speakers, but happily let them go for Dynaudio Focus 260 which are much more compatible with Naim…

I would not match B&W with Naim, they are trying to do different things, and both are not really going in the same direction, and I found it is less than optimal sound pairing them together. That diamond tweeter sounds very hard to me and Naim is not a warm sounding amp that rounds off the edges, and by that it is not engineered for a particular sound, it is a honest amp that tells is as it is, while maintaining dynamics and rhythm. It does have a very sweet top end but with a Neutral speaker. I don’t find the B&W sound even at 800 series to be neutral. That’s after having lived with one for years and hearing the various range D1, D2, D3 at dealers.

Speakers with pair with Naim are Dynaudio, Kudos, Proac, PMC, ATC, and Of course Naim’s own Ovator 400 and 600.

I would not rush into this and listen to a well sorted Naim system and take your time.

Naim is very special… gives years of unlimited musical enjoyment, it is worth the time to get the system right.

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I’m not a fan of B&Ws myself, but I suspect there are a considerable number of Naim/B&W owners out there who would disagree! Once again it goes to show that any individual, no matter how extensive their knowledge or experience might be, can only give an individual perspective. There are no rules when it comes to pairing anything with any particular marque.

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Well I owned it for a few years… it was enjoyable but saw the light when I heard other speakers from Naim, sonus Faber, Revel dynaudio proac and PMC

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… and…

… show a classic issue at play here, well covered by HH and others.

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My olives make great music into B&W804S, I also love my Nova into PMC 25.23s. Musically and hifi (details, bass…) the B&W system works better for me. I think it’s dangerous to generalise about speakers “working with Naim”, different people like different presentations. I love what the 804S do on the end of 135s.

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Yes indeed and your amplifier is a 52/135 - monoblocs (Naim’s top system before 552/500) to drive the power hungry 804s…

In any case I would choose the NAP 250 DR over the SN2 to drive a B&W 803D.

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Eoink, how far are your B&W’s from the wall? I think that should be the main concern for the OP: the room and distance to the walls.

I liked the B&W 800 series, but only well into a room.

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Hi Ardbeg, as you’ll see from the picture, the speakers are partly in front of the wall and partly in front of the windows. They’re about 40cm from the wall and 70cm from the glass.

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Many thanks for sharing your experience/insights regarding to my original post of this thread. Your feedback has been very helpful overall, and it has been for me a nice experience of the NAIM community in this forum as a novice.

The main take-home message for me is that my original two-box streamer-amp options were not balancing well with my intended high-end speakers B&W 803d (a point made by hungryhalibut and seconded by several others: Gunnar, Fernar, Bobthebuilder,JohnF, etc.). I did not hear anyone coming out strongly in the defense of 272 with respect to its streaming functionality, and from what I understand, waiting for the 272 successor might be like Madama Butterfly waiting for Pinkerton. The preferred alternative seems to be the NDX2 (e.g. seakayaker) at increased box count.

So based on your feedback I am considering these more high-end solutions for the intended B&W 803:

a) NDX2 + 282 + 250 DR (three box)
b) NDX2 + 252 + 300 (four box)

My issues now:

  • I still desire to minimize the box count, so I was wondering whether the various power supplies mentioned (555PS, Supercap, Hicap) are necessary to have the above combinations function, or whether they are optional?
  • If they are optional, would an average listener hear the difference with or without these additional power supplies (when paired up with B&W 803 or similar quality loudspeakers)?
  • Would an average listener hear the difference between a) and b) (when paired up with B&W 803 or similar quality loudspeakers)?

Mike-B says that B&W loudspeakers are tested with 225-300W per channel. But the high-end amp 300 seems to deliver only 90 W, so

  • what makes the 300 so good (and so expensive)?

This very much relates to the question well-articulated by timmo1341. From the follow-up I understand there are no simple or readily available technical data sheets, and so it comes to subjective listening.

  • Does any of you (in addition to Analogmusic) had experiences with Naim amps and B&W speakers, and how well do you think they “match”, subjectively?

When I ask about “hearing the difference” and what makes an amp set-up “good”, I should mention that currently I have a relatively large living room (8 x 8 m), but in 99% of the cases, I will not play the music very loudly, as I live on the canals of Amsterdam and have neighbours. So I am less interested in differences that will become apparent only at volume levels of dance clubs.

From Innocent_Bystander and I understood that room correction can be a good thing but its availability should not be a deciding factor, rather optimise room layout.

I will also follow through on the advice of trying to arrange a home demo (did not realize that this was in the cards). I am renting though, and I sure hope that my hi-end hifi equipment will not turn into a lemon if I later buy an apartment. Come to think of it, at the prices involved of my option b), I might have to longer rent my current apartment :wink:

Further feedback is much appreciated, thank you.

Greetings from Amsterdam!
David-NL

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I believe you would need separate PSUs for the pre-amps (for streamer it’s optional but at this level recommended)

NAC282

Power Supply Options: NAP 155 XS, NAP 200, FlatCap XS, HiCap, SuperCap

NAC252

Power Supply Options: SuperCap

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The Nac252 will need a Supercap to power it so your second option is a 5 box arrangement.

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Hi David

My similar questions re 282 & 252 power supplies were fully answered in this recent thread

HTH

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From their specifications the peak power capability of Naim power amps before clipping is of the order of 5x the rated power output - more specifically, 500w in the case of the NAP 300. That is in contrast to the more common factor of 2 peak vs continuous power capability quoted by othe manufacturers. Given that in practical music terms peak power capability is usually the limiting factor, if my understanding is correct, in practical terms the 300 can deliver similar power to a nominally 250w RMS rated amp by another manufacturer.

I would consider nothing less than the 300 in the Nsim range for my own speakers, as I know that for spirited playing peaks of 500w are needed.

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When I went from an olive 250 to a non-dr 300 I found that low volume listening worked a lot better

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David, I’m glad you found my comments helpful. With those speakers, it’s really the 300 that you want. I’ve had a 250DR and now have a 300DR and it’s simply miles better. I didn’t say much about the 272 because I suspect you want the new platform, which is more flexible. I use a 272/555PSDR with my 300 and in my opinion it is wonderful and in the world of Naim fantastic value. Remember that both the 282 and 252 need a power supply, so that’s more boxes!! If you want to stop at four, the 272, 555, 300 is hard to beat.

Turning to speakers, I’d support the suggestions of looking at used examples. I paid only £2,100 for my used Naim SL2s when I bought them nearly four years ago, and you’d need to spend about £10,000 to equal them if you were to buy something new. I can understand the allure of something new of course, and if you have tried lots of speakers and really love the 803D3, then just make sure you give them the electronics they deserve. Also, make sure you don’t end up spending £30,000 when you’d really have been happy with something that costs a third or half that. It’s easy to get carried away!!

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Great, thanks, I missed that one!

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Sorry jumping in @anon4489532 - how many boxes do you have 3 or 4?. I have a 272/XPSDR/Nap 250DR. I am contemplating upgrading the XPS DR to 555PS DR. At this time I hadn’t really thought about replacing the nap250 for a 300 but interested to read you comments. That’s 3 boxes still yes? - you could presumably get the nap330 PS to power the NAP 300 but is that overkill

PS looking at the Naim connection guide P23 looks like you have two Burndys on the 555psdr - does it matter which connection is used? (and why does it have two)

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The 300 is a two box amplifier - always two boxes. The 555PS has two Burndy sockets to power the NDS, ND555 or, of course, the CD555. When used with a 272 you use a single S-XPS Burndy, connected to Socket 1 on the 555PS.

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David,

When I make an upgrade PS or Ethernet cable or … my wife hears the difference. She is normally saying “It was really good before but now it sounds even better”. And she is not an Audiophile. So the answer is Yes. Normal people hear the upgrades.

Buying loudspeaker second hand is not bad but I am not sure it is for you David. In my opinion you need to be an experienced listener so you can be sure that the loudspeakers are without technical faults and that you will like them. But why not buy demos from a dealer.

I had three loudspeakers for home demo before deciding. I had Sopra 3, 802 D3 and Kudos Titan 808. The first did not work in my room, the 802 was in my mind too analytical. The third the Titans i liked and kept. That does not means that the first two were bad but not for me even if I enjoyed them in the dealer rooms. In a listening session with the ND 555 one of the loudspeakers were 800 D3. The guy next to me loved them. He was on his way upgrading from a 804. So very individual.

It is better to be able to say. “I decided for the 803 after listening to some other brands”. Instead of regretting. A compromise for you could be. Buy the electronics and pay them but do not pay for the 803 before you are sure you really enjoy them in your place.

I bought my electronics from one dealer and the loudspeakers from another one. I strongly recommend you to home demo loudspeakers prior deciding. For me it’s a question of enjoying the music without being tired in the ears after a few hours listening.

Buying Naim the dealer takes care of the installation. If you are not pleased with the 803 you can always choose another dealer for the loudspeaker. I am sure they will let you get a home demo of prior deciding. But up to you to make the shortlist and of course to find the dealer.

May 8 Naim will make an an announcement of new product(s). Maybe (no one knows what) a new 272 will be realised with the new streaming platform. So do not decide prior May 8.

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@HH - thanks for your reply - much appreciated