For clarity … that was Vivaldi Apex in your home trial … right?
I read @Dunc as saying he tried Apex on Vivaldi and has it on his system at home, but , re Rossini Apex it was a dealer who advised that the Apex had similar benefit on Rossini as it had on Vivaldi, also confirming that he (the dealer) found no benefit of a preamp between it and a 300dr. If I’ve misunderstood then no doubt Dunc will correct.
Hi
just to clarify, I had a non apex rossini.
I was going to get it apex’ed.
I didn’t do that in the end as i got instead an apex’ed vivaldi dac.
I tried the non apex rossini dac against an apex’ed rossini dac using 552dr and 500dr amp at dealers. The apex was better.
I then tried the apex vivaldi dac against the rossini apex dac and once found that the vivaldi was quite a bit ahead.
Then done a deal on the vivaldi apex dac.
Got this home and connected to my 552dr, and 500dr.
Then ordered a vivaldi upsampler months later.
If was when picking this up a guy that works for dCS told me to try going directly into the 500dr rather than through the 552dr. He was there on an open day for dCS at the hifi dealers shop. He has a rossini apex direct to a 300dr, he has a 552dr i believe as well.
I tried it after a few weeks had gone by, not thinking that i would ever remove my end game pre amp that i longed for, for years, and years. But i was shocked and it never went back in.
Hopefully that clears it all up.
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You got a Dac in your Sia 30? Richard currently has a Sia 30 Dac module.
Thanks … so where it leaves us … in your personal experience … the performance of the 552 lies somewhere between the pure digital output of the standard Rossini - which it betters - and the Vivaldi Apex with Upsampler … which you preferred. That being the case … out of politeness to our hosts here … I for one would appreciate it if in future discussions you would qualify your blanket assertions that “DCS direct is so much better than a 552”. I fully respect and support your enthusiasm and system choices … but the reality is that it has taken a DAC combo costing 66,000 GBP to oust the 552. I’m afraid I’m going to feel compelled to keep bringing this up - if you don’t - to restore balance.
If the output from a DAC is a suitable impedance, of suitable (small) current capability, buffered, and ultrasonically frequency limited if power amp needs (none of which are challenging requirements), then putting it through a preamp simply adds electronics. Unless needed for other sources, at best the preamp would do nothing, and in reality it will modify the signal in some way and to some degree. If someone prefers whatever the preamp adds or takes away, then of course that is better – otherwise better to omit (and put the money saved into something else!).
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I am not really sure what you want me to say.
Plus it was just the dac and not the upsampler or clock in the system, just the dac, and this doesn’t cost anything like you quoted, more like a ND555 and 2 x power supplies.
But i certainly don’t feel i need a pre amp these day’s with what i have, but i need one as i have a turntable, and tape deck.
I would have just gone directly into my 500dr if i could, and that would have been fabulous but i couldn’t do without my turntable.
The volume control is quite special how it’s been done, as you can lose bit’s in the digital volume world but this isn’t done like that and so no bit’s are lost when you turn the volume down.
I did find my old rossini non apex very good going directly into my 500dr, it’s not as good as apex but it’s still very good, and i could have easily lived with it, but again i need a pre amp for my turntable.
Plus i liked the 6 volt output sound and the 500dr didn’t like much, plus it made it too loud, and so had to turn the dac volume down, both these things i felt slightly hurt the dynamics, but as far as bass, treble, details, etc, then i felt they didn’t get effected. But the main problem was turntable so just went back to how i was 552dr and 500dr.
But as said the apex upgrade you can get on these dac’s changes everything as far as analog output stage goes.
Cheers dunc
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“Then ordered a vivaldi upsampler months later.
If was when picking this up a guy that works for dCS told me to try going directly into the 500dr”
Sounds to me like you had both by then … but whatever you say … just keep your views balanced and fair to all parties, that’s all I ask.
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Good man, this forum badly needs balance.
.sjb
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Sadly not all systems (amps) have balance controls…
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I love Naim gear and am a fan boy! But other people are allowed to like something else it doesn’t hurt my feelings! You have an amazing system by your profile have a beer and relax and enjoy it😁 everything will be ok.
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I feel i have explained it many times, and not sure what more i can say.
The vivaldi dac came first, i then used my melco N10 to stream qobuz and play stored files before i eventually got the upsampler, i now also have the clock by the way. This was months later as i simply couldn’t afford it at the same time.
If it bothers you that much, just look back at my posts, you will see when i got both, plus if you look at the dCS road show, you will also see the date they were at hi fi lounge, and this will correspond with the time i got the upsampler, nothing to hide, but i will add the upsampler makes things even better, and the clock then also goes a step further, but the 3 box set up certainly costs, especially at new retail prices, luckily i didn’t pay anywhere near this as i just couldn’t justify it.
You can go back and read my thoughts on it all as it’s still here if you look, so no real point dragging it all back up really.
Nothing else to add to this, so once again hope this clears it up.
Cheers dunc
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Hi, yes, my point had nothing to do with you acquiring your boxes in staggered steps - it was to do with the level of investment required before you could definitively say - following tests in your own home - that this now beats my 552. I have never doubted that you feel you have now reached that level - but your oft-repeated slating of the 552 needs to be set against the cost required for today’s and tomorrow’s enthusiast to reach that level for themselves. That’s all - I think we get each other’s points - Cheers, good luck and am looking forward to following your audio journey in future.
The cost is always a consideration obviously but if you really want to compare then i guess its
Naim ND555 and power supply £25k ish or £32K if you add in the second power supply, plus a 552dr £25k. Thats £50K or £57K
Vivaldi apex dac is around £36k then you would need to add a streamer to match like for like, so anything from £20 raspberry pie up to a £30k taiko extreme.
So that makes things very interesting is how i see it.
Cheers dunc
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Well in that case you need to bow out because you never did any of these comparisons.
Once again i haven’t a clue what you are getting at.
I did many comparisons but mostly used a top melco to feed it all when doing this, at dealer shop, and at home. As in stored music off the melco all using the same cables etc, etc.
It’s not hard to hear the difference at all.
But you are right i will bow out as really it’s all been said before.
We all spend our money how we want and we all want different thing’s. For some reason i feel you need me to give you reassurance on all this. But really if you are that concerned then the only real answer for you is go and have a demo. If not then just carry on as it’s only music after all and certainly nothing important.
Cheers dunc
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Alas, I think this is becoming more about someone “calling my baby ugly” than anything to do with music.
There seems to be no end of brave knights willing to defend the 552’s honour.
.sjb
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Maybe your dealer knew that you were going to promote the gear endlessly on this forum 
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I enjoy reading Dunc’s threads about upgrading and trying out non Naim products.
For me the forum is basically a replacement for the hi-fi magazines I used to read in the 1980s and early 1990s. I would normally reach for HiFi Review first to read the rave review of the latest Naim product but I also liked to browse HiFi News from time to time and read their glowing reviews of the Absolute Sound gear.
If Naim are confident enough in their products to let people discuss their competitors gear on their forum I am not sure why anyone else would object.
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Don’t think anyone’s objected to that. Correct me if I’m wrong.