There is always at least a buffering stage and volume control - but not necessarily amplification making a preamp… But then the term “passive preamp” was coined for a glorified volume control in place of a true preamp for high level input signals, which is a contradicion in terms because it is a variable attenuator not amplifier, but the term stuck. If you redefine preamp as something that comes prior to the amplifier, as opposed to a meaning a separate preliminary amplifier raising low level signals to line level suitable to drive the main amplifier, then I suppose you can call anything after the source a preamp… In other words, in practical terms the answer to your question effectively is yes!
1 Like
You’ve diverged from the discussion to a topic that primarily revolves around the definition of a preamp. I have no further comments on that.
Well the clock has warmed up, and stabilised now.
Sounding fantastic.
Nothing more to add, so that’s probably the end off this thread.
Cheers dunc
6 Likes
Very interesting discussion all round.
For my part I am using a Vitus SIA 025 paired with Focal Micro Utopia BE’s and a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. The Tambaqui has output sensitivity of 0.6V, 2V or 6V .
As the SIA 025 has input sensitivity selectable as ≤ 2 Vrms, ≤ 4 Vrms, ≤ 8 Vrms I thought it was best to ask Vitus Audio directly. I emailed Vitus that I had set the DAC at 2v output and SIA at 4v input. which sounded good but that I would be interested for their thoughts.
I also indicated that my options I presumed were:
DAC .6v SIA 2v
Dac 2v SIA 2v
Dac 2v SIA 4v
Dac 6v SAI 8v
1 Like
I would go for 6v out and set the vitus to 8v in.
This should be a more dynamic sound, plus give you more class A volume
Hi Dunc
I did try 6v out into 8v on the SIA and technically that would reduce the chance of clipping - so that combination would be the safest option and is what Vitus gave as the simple correct answer to my email.
However they also expanded on this by adding that you should basically like to have the sensitivity as close and slightly above the input signal of the amp. 2V output and 2V RMS should give the best 1-1 experience, however, outputting 6V and setting the amp in 8V RMS can help with the signal-to-noise ratio whereas the noise is what is picked up by the cables. In most situations this is absolutely not necessary and is mostly for pro-audio where you’d have signal cables running 10+ meter.
It’s early days for me as a Vitus owner but so far I am very impressed by the company’s customer service and it’s product.
1 Like
You’re on record as saying that your 552 pre plus 500 beat your (then) DCS Rossini directly into the power amp. So it was only when you moved to VIVALDI level that you preferred “no preamp” to preamp.
It’s the apex upgrade that made it much better, this is a different output board, and certainly brings a big difference.
You can get apex on bartock, rossini, and vivaldi, so to answer your question correctly, no it wasn’t the upgrade to rossini it was the apex upgrade
2 Likes
I had thought - by the time you upgraded to Apex you already had moved the 552 out. So you didn’t ever own Rossini Apex / only Vivaldi Apex – am I correct?
I had a non apex rossini player and clock, i had it booked in for the apex upgrade, but stupidly listened to a vivaldi apex against it, and also the apex rossini. It took about 10 seconds to know that the apex vivaldi even on it’s own was the star, and so that was that.
It was only when i went to pick up my vivaldi upsampler, and the dealer had a dCS day that i was told by one off the dCS guys that also has naim to try it direct again. He has the 300dr directly from his rossini.
I didn’t really believe him, as i had tried it before with my rossini, and decided i would keep it how it was, this was due to a few reasons and not just down to sound as it was very close.
But now with the apex it was very different, and certainly no need for a pre amp these days if you only have one source.
Hope that helps clear it up, but you can find more details on it all, but i think my vivaldi thread got removed that had all the main details.
Cheers dunc
1 Like
For clarity … that was Vivaldi Apex in your home trial … right?
I read @Dunc as saying he tried Apex on Vivaldi and has it on his system at home, but , re Rossini Apex it was a dealer who advised that the Apex had similar benefit on Rossini as it had on Vivaldi, also confirming that he (the dealer) found no benefit of a preamp between it and a 300dr. If I’ve misunderstood then no doubt Dunc will correct.
Hi
just to clarify, I had a non apex rossini.
I was going to get it apex’ed.
I didn’t do that in the end as i got instead an apex’ed vivaldi dac.
I tried the non apex rossini dac against an apex’ed rossini dac using 552dr and 500dr amp at dealers. The apex was better.
I then tried the apex vivaldi dac against the rossini apex dac and once found that the vivaldi was quite a bit ahead.
Then done a deal on the vivaldi apex dac.
Got this home and connected to my 552dr, and 500dr.
Then ordered a vivaldi upsampler months later.
If was when picking this up a guy that works for dCS told me to try going directly into the 500dr rather than through the 552dr. He was there on an open day for dCS at the hifi dealers shop. He has a rossini apex direct to a 300dr, he has a 552dr i believe as well.
I tried it after a few weeks had gone by, not thinking that i would ever remove my end game pre amp that i longed for, for years, and years. But i was shocked and it never went back in.
Hopefully that clears it all up.
2 Likes
You got a Dac in your Sia 30? Richard currently has a Sia 30 Dac module.
Thanks … so where it leaves us … in your personal experience … the performance of the 552 lies somewhere between the pure digital output of the standard Rossini - which it betters - and the Vivaldi Apex with Upsampler … which you preferred. That being the case … out of politeness to our hosts here … I for one would appreciate it if in future discussions you would qualify your blanket assertions that “DCS direct is so much better than a 552”. I fully respect and support your enthusiasm and system choices … but the reality is that it has taken a DAC combo costing 66,000 GBP to oust the 552. I’m afraid I’m going to feel compelled to keep bringing this up - if you don’t - to restore balance.
If the output from a DAC is a suitable impedance, of suitable (small) current capability, buffered, and ultrasonically frequency limited if power amp needs (none of which are challenging requirements), then putting it through a preamp simply adds electronics. Unless needed for other sources, at best the preamp would do nothing, and in reality it will modify the signal in some way and to some degree. If someone prefers whatever the preamp adds or takes away, then of course that is better – otherwise better to omit (and put the money saved into something else!).
2 Likes
I am not really sure what you want me to say.
Plus it was just the dac and not the upsampler or clock in the system, just the dac, and this doesn’t cost anything like you quoted, more like a ND555 and 2 x power supplies.
But i certainly don’t feel i need a pre amp these day’s with what i have, but i need one as i have a turntable, and tape deck.
I would have just gone directly into my 500dr if i could, and that would have been fabulous but i couldn’t do without my turntable.
The volume control is quite special how it’s been done, as you can lose bit’s in the digital volume world but this isn’t done like that and so no bit’s are lost when you turn the volume down.
I did find my old rossini non apex very good going directly into my 500dr, it’s not as good as apex but it’s still very good, and i could have easily lived with it, but again i need a pre amp for my turntable.
Plus i liked the 6 volt output sound and the 500dr didn’t like much, plus it made it too loud, and so had to turn the dac volume down, both these things i felt slightly hurt the dynamics, but as far as bass, treble, details, etc, then i felt they didn’t get effected. But the main problem was turntable so just went back to how i was 552dr and 500dr.
But as said the apex upgrade you can get on these dac’s changes everything as far as analog output stage goes.
Cheers dunc
4 Likes
“Then ordered a vivaldi upsampler months later.
If was when picking this up a guy that works for dCS told me to try going directly into the 500dr”
Sounds to me like you had both by then … but whatever you say … just keep your views balanced and fair to all parties, that’s all I ask.
2 Likes
Good man, this forum badly needs balance.
.sjb
7 Likes
Sadly not all systems (amps) have balance controls…
2 Likes