Indeed, problem is none will meet the UK load shortfall in low wind nights, .
The storage area (hectare/acre) needed for battery power, as we know it today, is huge.
I dread to think how the environmentalists will react over digging out numbers of large lakes on high hills & mountains
Very true, I heard yesterday that we will need to quadruple at a minimum our wind farms just to supply the power for electric vehicles.
Iād like to see more manufacturers using Vehicle to Grid (V2G), then with a little further smartness, you would charge when there is excess energy, and release charge during the peak hours.
In addition, I do think Solar panels are a great idea, but the old Feed In Tariff encourages you to use as much of your produced energy as possible. The current scheme isnāt much better whereby you get 25% of the cost you are paying for any energy going to the grid. What you need is a one-for-one deal where you get all your produced energy is offset from your Bill. That way you are still encouraged to save energy.
If you donāt enable Server mode, then the only question left is do you really need to power up the USB. Does it need to do a full purge and rescan each time, or can it be smarter and just for example detect the same device name (or leave hidden marker files on the drive), then do a rescan for differences, in which case I donāt see a bit of CPU sacrifice for a couple of minutes to be a big issue compared with the addition energy use of permanent power usage. Iām sure Naim can think of a cleaver solution here if it is possible, hence raising it as a ticket. And if not, then the documentation needs amending.
At the moment Deep sleep is a work-around, and doesnāt appear to do a rescan that Iāve noticed. Pulling the USB device out each time isnāt easy in my case.
My thoughts are that the vast majority will not be using the built in server to serve music files to other client devices, even if they have noticed that this is an option, as it is not well documented. Server mode can be turned off though.
I guess it would be nice if, once the USB drive was scanned, the data was cached so that a rescan was not required every time you wake the streamer. Maybe easier said than done.
For me, itās not really an issue as like many people I run a separate NAS/server. At least if I were to keep a streamer running as a server I would be able to do without that.
Streaming data is quite energy hungry. I think it is true that Spotify, for example, can store files locally in case you decide to listen to them again, thereby saving bandwidth for repeat listens.
I presume Naim streaming services do not take advantage of this, as they donāt have local storage capacity (not much anyway).
If this is true, adding an ability to cache content locally could significantly reduce the carbon footprint of a streaming device.
The streaming services all allow you to store music locally for offline use, but only when using their own app on a portable device. The idea is that if you lose your connection you can still keep listening, so ideal for commuting etc.
This is only permitted within their own app so that the music is tightly copy protected, and will stop working if you stop paying the sub.
Thatās right, but thatās different from cached offline content. You still need to be online to be allowed to play it (unless you have marked it for offline use), but the device will play from the cached copy if it can instead of downloading it again.
Anyway the point is that itās possible to store content locally to save on bandwidth without changing it from being a streamed service.
Thanks but unfortunately that link doesnāt work for me. Get āOops! That page doesnāt exist or is privateā. I guess you need to be in the beta group for that to work.
Yes a NAS drive would get around this, but its energy use would probably not be much different, and the hassle of maintaining another IT device isnāt something that I want unless it gives me other benefits that I need. I could of course shut the NAS down at night, but I donāt think it will be cost effective. Saying all that, I have looked as RPiās recently just as a bit of fun, but as hard as I try I canāt really think of a use outside a music server.
The USB stick works very well for me. I donāt change the data often (although last night I had to correct >500 files that had an ā&ā in their name which the latest firmware wont play). Then all I do is insert drive in main computer and run a shell script I wrote to convert some playlists then sync.
Sorry, I forgot that was a beta post, I shouldnāt have linked to it here!
I do agree that it would be nice to use network standby mode without having to physically remove the USB drive every time. Perhaps @Stevesky could comment on whether or not this is feasible?
For me, itās also an issue of audible hum. We have an Atom in the living room, and itās clearly audible across the room, so I wouldnāt keep a USB drive in it for that reason, albeit somewhat trivial compared to the need to reduce energy use.
I think in the uk we have already used the readily available pumped storage locations such as Foyers, Ben Cruchan and Dinorwic. I believe there is one more decent sized one underway at the moment.
More pumped storage could be a great asset as the need to smooth out irregularities in the supply of wind power, albeit only for a short time. Not without a significant environmental cost of course, but less bad than burning more fossil fuels.
The height of the dam on the upper reservoir at Dinorwig was raised recently to increase capacity, and there are plans to build another, much smaller version on the other side of the valley.
Hi @ChrisSU
On all new Naim designs we are fully compliant with latest worldwide power regulations. So when in network connected standby the device takes less than 2Watts at the mains. If a non networked product then less then .5watts.
When we designed the Atom platform (2015ā¦) there was the dilemma on how to handle āforeignā objects plugged into USB ports of which each port allows 8watts (1.6Amps) to power the USB device.
To hit the 2Watt requirement we use a high efficiency switch mode power supply, but it doesnāt have the capabilities to deliver upto 16+watts on demand. We also had to consider:
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speed to mount the drive from no power. Some are fast, some take 10+ secs. This affects the end user experience waiting for the music collection to show in the app.
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implications of server mode as the music can still be played via upnp in a different room
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potential reduced life on mechanical drives going through 1000ās of cold start spin-ups per year. This is a hot subject if it makes any difference, but from our older server range (Unitiserve), using premium Seagate drives typically the drives gave up eventually at cold power cycle.
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Other things can be plugged into the ports. The USB power controller we use also charges phones and similar devices.
So we decided that when the USB controller senses a power draw requirement on the relevant USB port, we switch on the main PSU so that device can work as intended.
Technically we can add in an option to not auto sense / kill VBUS power on ports in standby, but it can open up a lot of technical support issues to help customers get a combination of kit that is usable. In practice power wise we are equal to a NAS drive running with a drive in it.
The other thing to consider is the requirement to save power vs putting up with the time period where the system is cold and needs to warm up / electrically stabilise to hit peak audio performance. The regulations donāt consider this, but we provide modes so the user can keep the electronics cooking - every user has a different perspective on what is important.
Best wishes
Steve Harris
Software Director
Naim Audio Ltd.
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Hi Chris, Iām all in favour of pumped storage. Iām just not certain that here in the U.K., there are (m)any more suitable locations.
And as with any storage system, it depends on sufficient availability of surplus energy at sometime, somewhere in the system, that would otherwise be wasted. This was the case with coal-fired baseload generators and nuclear generators.
Thanks Steve for the transparency on the design decisions made for USB interaction on the Uniti product line. It starts making sense to me why I spend the first 20 seconds or so looking at the Artwork to find the correct Artist. I always thought this was my flash USB drive mounting, which I found strange as a canāt sense any latency difference between selecting a favorite song on my USB and one on Tidal. Now i think the file structure is mounted way faster and the rest is just app interaction with the USB.
By the way, Not to stray too much on the subject here, in the end I like the āBuild to Lastā argument most in Naimās vision. Deceptively simple, but effective in multiple ways.
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Many thanks Steve for the response. (FYI I have raised this under ticket 123557.)
Thatās really useful to know the reasons behind this, and makes a lot of sense, so I guess I have two questions really.
- Would it be possible to have a future User option of āUSB Eco modeā where power is removed in Network Standby. This would be off by default to address your concerns, but would also means you stay fully compliant with latest worldwide power regulations
- If thatās not possible, then perhaps your website needs updating to make it clear that network standby mode does not always mean <2Watt usage
There is an interesting scaleable CO2 storage/pump plant being built in Sardinia. A large dome contains CO2 which during off peak is then compressed into liquid, in high demand it flows back to the dome via turbines to generate electricity. A CO2 battery in effect. But it could help UK have more pumped storage as Don points out probably not enough hydro locations left.
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Hi @GadgetMan ,
Its quoted in the technical spec of all products on the website. For example here is the Uniti Star one:
Regarding considering it as a feature, weāll look into it. Stuff like this needs to be balanced up on more key features that keeps the products competitive in the market place (and keeping code stability of what we have already) vs implementing power features for a small small subset of users (very few users use USB drives as their primary playback source and want this feature).
Best wishes
Steve
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Many thanks Steve, I raised this based on an NDX2, so havenāt checked the other products. Looks like you may have missed one
Donāt know if this is the case, as I see it quiet a few times on the Forum, although NAS drives do appear more common, but adds cost and complexity to the whole streaming process.
My Panasonic DVD/HDD players have a Eco Mode that means they use less power but sacrifices with a slower startup, so I guess its not a new idea to give users the option. Thanks again, and feel free to close down the ticket I raised.
Pumped storage power stations main purpose in UK is to act as a very rapid response boosters during NG power load fluctuations
UKās largest, Dinorwig, can be started & on line in aprx 16 seconds. But it can only run at full power (1800MW) for around 6 hours & it takes a lot longer to refill the reservoir.
Problem with pumped storage power is cost & time, it made sense to expand pumped storage capacity in the days of coal, but now with so many other diverse energy sources, including the cross Channel & North Sea links, its not so attractive.
Planning consent has been given for numbers of new pumped storage schemes, but after a few years, as yet none are beyond the planning stage. The cost of >Ā£500m & the years to build them, against the governments current contract conditions, does not make them attractive to investors. But the talking is still going on, so maybe it might happen
PS: The cross channel links are power going both ways.
IC France - 2 (independent) total 2000 MW
IC France 2 1,000 MW
IC Ned (Nederland) 1000 MW
IC Irl (N.Ireland) - 2 (independent) total 500 MW
IC Ew (Rep Ireland) 500 MW
IC Nem (Belgium) 1000 MW
IC Nsl (Norway) 1400 MW
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