You can’t fool me. It’s turtles all the way down.
I hope you are not burning Peder
Can we all just get along; getting tired of the snark around here.
Hopefully I know that Peder will approve my little joke. He knows I agree with him and share with him some tiredness to read some comments above.
I find it curious that forum members can go on about all these claims as if they are fact, but don’t like it when there are skeptics in the crowd who voice their disagreement. So how is it that the opinions & beliefs of the former are valid and acceptable, and reasonable criticisms and questioning claims by the latter are not?
I believe that different ethernet cables may cause music replay to sound different, due to alteration in the electrical noise (most likely RF) reaching the DAC, with some DACs prone to audible differences as a result, e.g through modulation effects. The degree of effect, and its audibility, is likely to vary according the network, the electrical environment, the streamer/DAC, the audio system, and the individual
Against that, I believe that “burn-in” of cables used for hifi, ethernet or any other is simply codswallop. I do not mean that any way to be insulting to anyone, and certainly I do not deny that some people genuinely perceive some effect over time that they interpret as burn-in. My starting point is that I have not come across any offered explanation for burn-in that is remotely plausible. Some people suggest that it may be due to some hitherto unknown effect - however, given that human ears are not absolute and totally consistent tools for comparing from one day to another, but psychological effects are well known such as becoming accustomed to and learning to like the sound one hears, I think the psychological explanation is a far, far more likely explanation of people’s perception of cable burn-in than some fanciful or so-far-unknown physical process.
In order to present a reasoned argument that burn-in is a more likely explanation, what is needed is to have two identical cables compare the two with blind listening tests, preferably with more than one listener, “burn-in” one but not the other, then repeat the blind listening tests. A difference then would start to be convincing, though to be have real weight it would need to be repeatable with more than te one pair of cables.
It’s not a claim Josquin, but a fact. Shared by thousands of users and Hifi reviewers well known in this audiophile world.
If it was only some particular and anecdotic points of view, it would not be of course a fact.
Opinions and anecdotes shared by thousands of users does not make fact. It’s still just opinion and anecdotes shared by thousands of users. Facts are not determined my majority vote,…
…and especially not if they are hifi reviewers.
Confirmation bias is a very powerful force in the universe.
This is an interesting comment.
Makes me think about my expensive Teddy Prado power supply.
The power supply did not make any difference, at all.
Still, I didn’t sell it.
It still powers my Roon server.
The curious thing is that I knew it wouldn’t make a difference.
This leaves me thinking about how strangely one can think/reason even with solid engineering knowledge…
As said previously, I now have a ridiculously expensive Roon server
In science, when an observation is shared by a very big « échantillon « of subjects coming from different ares, these same observations give what it’s called « fact ».
I had the same ps on my last unitserve. It gave very little differences. However later I bought an Uptone js2 ps, which uplifted really the sound of the naim server. I think the Israeli ps is not enough powerful for something like a server. On a switch, it made positive results.
In french « fait avéré « . If 10 thousand different people have exactly the same « symptôme « after taking a particular medecine, it becomes a fact, not?
If 10,000 people believe their ethernet cable experienced burn-in that most certainly does not make it fact. Where is the empirical data to support it, and where is it demonstrated that confirmation bias didn’t influence observation?
We start with Bert asking about whether it’s ok to leave his system on for a few days and we end with a rather petty argument about something that matters not one jot. It doesn’t matter. Let it go.
In pharmacology test, which is science, the only different parameter is that some have the placebo, other the real medecine. But if 95% of people who received the real medecine share the same physical effects ( like for example the increase of the body temperature), this symptom will be considered as a fact. Not ?
I have, I believe, experienced amplifiers changing and usually producing a better sound quality as components such as electrolytic capacitors stabilise over time.
On the other hand I’ve never heard that effect for any cables - the burn in effect if present is well below the day to day and month to month variation in the way my ears/brain perform and the inconsistencies of my memory for the precise details of a musical signal.
(Incidentally, I’ve never noticed the ‘burn-in’ effect for computers - they also seem to stay the same and not get any quicker).
Not if 95% of people on the placebo also share the same physical effects ( like for example the increase of the body temperature).
Yes, it’s logical. But if none of the placebo group encounters rise of body temperature, only those having received the real product ? As well as men as women ? In the same conditions of test?
I’ll only briefly comment on this,.for answers and arguments as above,I’ve been reading since the mid-1980s.
I,.and the distributor for Naim and Linn in the 1980s and onwards,evaluated a lot together.
It happened that Ivor (Linn),.was also involved (when he was in Sweden).
The former distributor became an icon in Sweden,.and on Linn.
So I can use one word,.I’m taught from the best in many,many years.
As an example,.who are we to question,among other things,.Ivor’s knowledge.
And he,.or the Swedish distributor never needed any scientific evidence,or other “reliable evidence for anything factual”.
They listened with their ears and minds…
If It Sounds Better,.It Is Better,As Simply As That.
•People who need scientific evidence of everything,.i’ve met them throughout my more serious hifi-life (from 1983,.when I bought my first LP12 and onwards).
The funny thing is,.I haven’t yet meet any such person,who has not agreed with us when we listened,.tested and evaluated together.
Although,.we have not had scientific evidence and reports .
See the answer above.!!!
AND,.that’s enough for me,my large swedish group,.all the forums that use Tune-Dem as an evaluation-method…Ivor and the former distributor etc,etc…
I have in many places here,.including in the thread…“Ethernet Switch and Cables Mania”,which I started.
Described my experience,.and what I have listened to and tested.
It is based on that practical experience,.as I make my statements.
But JosquinDesPrez,.in that you question this,please tell us about your experience…
• About how you listen and evaluate.
• What evaluation-method you use.
• What ehternet/streaming cables you tested.
It’s always good,.to be able to value what you say,that we know what practical experience you have,.from what we’re talking about.
Then the reader himself,.may draw his own conclusions.
/Peder
Enough said