Good that the demo equipment that you can borrow also have been “broken in”. Then we have the same experience!
The Swedish market is far from as big as the market in UK. The dealer have one product if we are lucky. They are not very keen on letting you borrow the product for several weeks (as you can read here on the forum, is possible in UK).
If another potential customer enters their shop they off course want some equipment to demo in the shop. It’s quite common that you borrow a product on a Friday and returning it on the Monday after, here in Sweden.
For most equipment a weekend (up to 4-5 days) is enough to figure out how that product performs. If I’m not impressed/convinced after that time I will not make a purchase…
The “discussion” started (thanks to IB) with equipment effectively being shipped on a trial basis, probably with the goods returned if not to the customer’s liking. This did not sound like the dealer shipping in a demo product, but a new one.
My opinion, based on this “discussion” was that “a couple of days” was far too short to form a satisfactory assessment of the product, especially since others had reported very long burn-in periods.
Of course, if you are now making it clear that said product(s) is being shipped 500km on a demonstration basis only, and (as would normally be expected) is a fully run-in demo piece of equipment to be returned and replaced with new product if the customer likes the end result, then the discussion has usefully clarified an otherwise ambiguous situation.
For clarity, when I last did that myself, comparing Dave and Hugo TT, the units were demo models, and when I bought Dave I had to return the demo model and wait for a new one because at that point they didn’t want to let go of their demo one because at that time there was a waiting list. Trial period was undefined, nominally “up to a couple of weeks or so”, though I decided quicker.
My suggestion to Marcus was simplified - and of course it might be that dealer would be happy to sell a demo model.
Of course, not everything needs burn-in, but that is a different topic…
It’s Not My Experience,.so it would be interesting to briefly hear…
What products you’re referring to,.that don’t get better by sitting for a long time (burn-in),in the music-system.
Example:
Below we have four Powercables…
• All are burn-in in exactly 300 hours.
• All four are exactly the same length 1.5m.
• All have the same cable,Jorma Design Duality.
The only difference is,.that these four powercables have different quality-level of contacts.
From the top,.and then downwards,we have…
• Furutech FI-E50 NCF,.their best contact.
• Furutech FI-E50,.their second best contact.
• Oyaide F1/M1,.their best contact.
• Oyaide P/C 004,.their second best contact.
And all these powercables got significantly better after 300 hours of burn-in.
So it would be interesting to hear…
What products you’re referring to,.that don’t get better by sitting for a long time (burn-in),in the music-system.?
Of course… I hope that didn’t come out sounding like criticism.
My only point, I suppose, is that if you can get it posted out for a trial (rather than go on a 1,000 km round trip) it may be worth it if you find that, much to your surprise, you prefer how it sounds. I’m not in the Melco camp and have already popped down the EtherRegen rabbit hole. What’s more I’m going to stay there, not because I don’t think there may be something better around, but because I am fairly sure that a new wave of better similar products will be appearing in the coming year/s. It may be why I don’t try the external clocks. But if I wasn’t already an EtherRegen owner, I’d certainly try both of the switches if I could do so easily.
Firstly let me ask you: have you listened to these ‘burnt in’ cables in direct A-B comparison to brand new cables, as blind tests?
———————————————————————-
To answer your question is probably easiest to refer you initially to this post from another thread, which gives an overall summary:
Meanwhile this post in another thread explains my view re ethernet cables:
And additionally re interconnects:
Very significant is that our ears can and sometimes do change. I’m not talking long term age-related deterioration, but from day to day, hour by hour, sometimes even minute by minute. Most particularly and demonstrable changes may be due to anything that restricts or alters equalisation of inner ear pressure but then there can also be the effect of varying tinnitus (even tinnitus at a low level that you don’t normally realise is there), or numbing effect of other sounds, etc. (That is quite apart from accuracy or otherwise of precisely remembering a sound, which is an additional limiting factor.) It is therefore quite meaningless to compare a sound today with a remembered sound at some time past, only direct A-B comparison of a ’burnt-in’ item with a new one being able to identify a difference reliably (and of course compared blind to remove psychological influences).
And to be conclusive proof rather than indicative, but of course going further than any individual would ever do, it would be necessary to be sure any audible difference is not due to factors unrelated to the ‘burn-in’, such as differences between the two when new - possibly not an issue with cables, but potentially so with electronics (e.g. due to component value variability even within tolerance), probably dictating a need for more than one each of the burnt in and virgin items.
No worries, I did not take you suggestion as criticism.
I’m of the same opinion as you. Without testing I can off course not know if I would prefer the Melco or ER + external PS. It would probably be a close call!
Some say you need ER + external PS + external clock to reach the performance level of Melco S100 + stock PS. Others are saying that they prefer ER + stock PS to Melco + stock PS. My conclusion from this is that they have similar performance. You can try different PS (on both) or different clocks (on ER) to extract the little extra but both could work as very good switches. No doubt!
My point is that in the “digital domain” it’s not possible to alter the frequency response i.e. “colour” the sound. One or the other would probably not sound “richer” or “leaner” as can happen in the “analogue domain”. A digital signal can only be cleaner and you can then think that one is more analogue since you are able to hear more details (or whatever). System matching should not be as important as for analogue products.
I understand that you are not interested in trying the Melco S100. You have already made your choice and I’m sure that you could reach similar performance if choosing either the Melco S100 or ER. The ER + external PS is good enough without an external clock so I fully understand that you prefer to not look into that area. Three boxes or more for a switch is hard to digest…
I also think that there may be something better around but I do not think that it will take years but rather weeks…
I’m not sure it’s as simple as that - I recall one description of the effect of ground-plane RF modulation in a DAC due to RF superimposed on the digital stream, causing noise floor modulation of the analogue signal, which apparently some people perceive as sounding ‘brighter’, And RF or other electrical noise superimposed on the digital signal entering a susceptible DAC is precisely the sort of thing that network cables and switches may alter, either adding, blocking or filtering selectively, so potentially affecting perceived ‘brightness’ - and to one person whichever the effect, apparently greater or reduced ‘brightness’ may sound better, to another it may sound worse!
Maybe the digital signal can carry noise into the analogue domain and alter the frequency response somehow. I have no idea…
If looking in the digital domain in isolation it should not be possible to alter the frequency response, i.e. “colour” the sound (as far as I understand). In the analogue domain, on the other hand, frequency response can be altered giving a “house sound” from certain hifi brands (as an example).
I have done a few tests myself and also attended demos of switches and Ethernet cables. Every time my experience have been that the “better” product have given a cleaner signal without altering the frequency response. I have heard less “noice”, been able to “look deeper into the music”, heard more micro details, singer “more in the room” and so on. All signs of a “cleaner” signal with less distortion. All this without altering the sound “signature” of the system. But that is only my own experience…
Be mindful that listening more intently/analytically may often give the impression that something has changed: improvements should be obvious rather than suggestive.
I think you are right… the whole rf thing is critical especially on the ethernet chain…I still think there is allot learn… but I also think significant progress has been made… in the last 18 months…with resulting digital systems sounding fantastic.
DorianAnatolios,… Here in our group,.if we are two,three or four,or more who shall listening.
Well,.then I usually hear in 5-10 seconds if it is better or worse.
Sometime I get insecure,.and need to repeat the song one more time from the beginning.
But usually I hear right away,.what is better or worse.
And then I have to sit and wait for the other people’s experiences and conclusions,.because they have to listen longer.
It may sound a bit like a “besserwisser” I know😉,.but I have been dealing with music-system installation and “speaker-tunning” etc,etc.
As well as evaluations and testing of hi-fi-stuff for many decades.
So I should have learned something,I think .
As an example:
Just until the end of October 2019,.I have installed around 100 Cisco-switches in 100 different music-systems,now there have become a few more .
And then you get a unique experience of how,.for example,different ehternet/streaming-cables work in different environments.
It is with that experience in the background,.which has made me react “a little” negatively,to the now hopefully forgotten concept of…“Fully Qualified” .
100% Dorian, its all anecdotal, different systems, different ears/brains & different music mean it cannot be anything else but.
Some greater percentage of agreement on something is indicative, but thats as good as it can get.
No consensus is often the case. It doesn’t mean you should not try.
Some prefer 282 vs 252, Ndac vs Nds, chord Hugo vs Nd555, streamer/ volume control into an amp vs with a preamp…
All is anecdotal.
From most of the examples you have provided there are obvious differences in the perceived sound however this is not generally transferable to switches and exotic cables because some people claim to not hear any difference.
Only 1 member heard no difference.
On audiophile style forum , whatsbestforum and audiosharks forum, hundred of members heard differences, with very very different systems, from few k to 200k and more.
A minority preferred the sotm, and the Melco. But no one , on hundred and hundred posts, claimed that his cheap tp link or Netgear sounded the same as these audiophile switches.
It’s Not My Experience,.so it would be interesting to briefly hear…
And all these powercables got significantly better after 300 hours of burn-in.
Here in our group,.if we are two,three or four,or more who shall listening.
.
.