Have you stopped upgrading. If so, why?

Sadly no - it came out about a month after I purchased mine.

I know that it goes against the grain here, stillI, I was expecting some honest answers to ‘Why I stopped upgrading?’ on the lines of: Sound is overrated, Small systems sound much more coherent, The cost of upgrading to achieve incremental improvements are obscene, High end gear exposes ruthlessly imperfect (most) recordings… Perhaps I was just dreaming.

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There’s something about your use of the word “honest” here that I find jarring.

From what you go on to say, I infer that you’re suggesting that people who have admitted to upgrading to a large, expensive, high-end system are being dishonest, if only with themselves:

Apologies if my inference is incorrect.

I answered earlier in this thread that, like yourself, I haven’t upgraded my (large, expensive, high-end) olive system since 1999. In my case, it’s because I am still satisfied with the performance of my system, which seems like a valid reason to me. I certainly haven’t felt the urge to spend money downgrading to a smaller system in search of a more “coherent” sound or a more forgiving presentation of less than perfect recordings.

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Just because others may not think that way doesn’t make their answers dishonest! I presume you meant that the answers have been surprising to you, and because of the way you feel you wonder if they are being honest with themselves?

Haim,

I have had a quick look through the thread and may have missed one or more of your quotes, but I don’t see your own answer to this question. What is your own system - have you downgraded to a smaller ‘more coherent’ system or are you still on the upgrade path? An answer to this question might allow us to more understand your perspective.

In my earlier reply, I linked to Haim’s post on the system pics thread at https://community.naimaudio.com/t/system-pics-2019/135/263, which provides a partial answer to this question.

However, thanks to a bugbear of mine about how links are (not) formatted on this forum, which I have already complained about elsewhere (hint, there’s a link in there somewhere), you might not have noticed.

I just worked out, if I keep my new speakers (delivered last week) as long as I kept the last ones, I will be 91 before I change speakers! [I’m currently 56].

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I stopped upgrading for 2 and a half years… but then I upgraded the Ortofon Cadenza Blue for a Kiseki Purpleheart last week. Just love the music it makes…

System is LP12/Radikal/Kore/Akito/Kiseki Purpleheart/Urika - CDS3 - NAT 05 - 552 - 300 DR - Harbeth SHL 5 Plus

Claude

Haim,

I have had a quick look through the thread and may have missed one or more of your quotes, but I don’t see your own answer to this question. What is your own system - have you downgraded to a smaller ‘more coherent’ system or are you still on the upgrade path? An answer to this question might allow us to more understand your perspective.
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I was not trying to accuse anyone of dishonesty. It is just that because of the nature of this very personal (one’s ears, room’s acoustics and size, taste in music, volume played, one’s budget) process of evaluating and trying to improve the sound we sometimes get carried away, in our impressions as well as our judgement…

I bought my NAIM set-up (Nait 3, 3.5 player, two Fatcaps along a pair of PROAC Response speakers) twenty years ago and left it unchanged since. I once borrowed a 200/202 for a week and despite hearing more (mostly in terms of dynamics and details) and liking very much the idea of owning more advanced separates I could not honestly convince myself that I was enjoying the music more. I realized then that the sound was not so important to me and I didn’t need anything better. Things were the same sitting in front of the 500s at the dealer. They sounded great but never tempting. So, to sum it up, I never upgraded since 1999 and have no plans to downgrade. I am just happy, without ever being bored, with the simple, wholesome little Olive system.

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In the interests of full disclosure, perhaps I should add that I have managed to stave off dissatisfaction by not letting curiosity about the latest and greatest additions to the Naim range get the better of me and so have stayed out of dealers’ dem rooms for the past 2 decades. I learned that lesson with the introduction of the NAC 52, which is why I am sure I would be tempted if I was sitting in front of 500s at the dealer and they sounded great :grinning:

You are one lucky person! (If not not a great advert for Naim’s ‘upgrade path leading people ever “upwards” and providing the revenue to maintain services and development!)

If I had stayed with my system from 20 years ago would I be happy with it now? Cambridge Audio CD2. Thorens TD150/Rega RB300/AT OC7. Musical Fidelity Preamp 2A. Musical Fidelity P170. IMF RSPM speakers. I was very happy with it, and would be happy is that was “all I had today, except that at some point I’d have ripped my LPs to make CDs and sold off the TT.

However the Cambridge CD2 started playing up about then, and within a year or two I had to replace it: Shearne Phase 7. Then the MF Pre went into oscillation on its moving coil input when playing Deep Purple at high volume, and took out a bass driver. Driver replaced, but I didn’t trust the pre after that so got a McLaren PA10. Then the Shearne started dying after 10 years (that seems to have been the life of the mechanics of a CD player, in both cases mechanisms no longer being available) - seeking a replacement for that took me into streaming.

Next I started thinking about my ancient IMFs, for which most drivers are only available secondhand, and sometimes expensive, and wondered about vpbuilding mupy own - a bit of fun DIY. Bought some drivers, but crossover is more of a challenge, untill I thought of doing active, so I bought a cheap digital XO, and picked up another MF P170 for next to nothing on eBay, and a P270 for not much more. Of course, while the project progressed, and stalled, several times, the 270 replaced the old 170 as main system amp.

Next was part of discovering digital playing post-CD, when I found that the Hugo DAC made a remarkable improvement to the sound of ND5XS - and digital became incredibly lifelike, such a step up, then neding a new NAS because the first had got was too noisy, and a bit ‘clunky’ in operation, a zero cost change inolved replacing the ND5XS and NAS with a Mac Mini running Audirvana.

That would have been it apart from the DIY speaker project that was on hold, but an inheritance gave me the opportunity to do something radical to remember the person who introduced me to music, so. Swapped Hugo for Dave, and the IMFs for PMC IB1is.

Dave has one very annoying property, which is a a very loud pop when powered on/off, normally prevented by a relay delay. But although warned about it, one day early on I was raarranging things and did it wrong - very loud noise, and a damaged midrange unit.

Final stage coming: at that point I had a brainwave: why not ipuse the mid/treble satellite units I had made as part of the speaker project, and triamp? So I tried that and liked it. But one bad thing: the three MF power amps run very hot - possibly unstably so in the long term in the cupboard in which housed, and they use a lot of electricity. Then a chance spotting of a Bryston amp going at a good price on eBay, with no bids (possibly because mis-spelt!) got me that, and I liked its improvement overvthe P270, do watched for alternatives for the two smaller MFs, and eventually one came up at a good price.

So that is it. Apart from playing with my DIY speaker project when I get time (if successful in getting them as good or better I’ll sell the EBs, otherwise give up on them (the bass end)). And the only othervthing is Audirvana has poor library handling, so one day will be replaced. Otherwise no other upgrades until something dies, which I hope wiill be a decade or two…

As you can see, many of my changes have been prompted by something, rather than being gratuitous. As I said early in this thread, answering the OP’s question: “Yes (sort of). …And I first stopped about 30 years ago”!

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I also think that @Haim is one lucky person, especially if the transport on his CD 3.5 is still working flawlessly after all these years, in which case he’s a great advert for the reliability of Naim equipment :grinning:

I am not quite so lucky, so in the near future I might be forced to upgrade because equipment that I would otherwise be satisfied with is malfunctioning and cannot be repaired.

I’m sure there’s a joke in there somewhere about how the lack of moving parts in Naim’s latest source components might end one revenue stream for Naim, but I just can’t put my finger on it right now :wink:

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Haim,

Thanks for explaining, and I guess your comments now make more sense to me. I have personally (more or less) stopped upgrading with the possible exception of adding Roon, but I do think that your observation about music enjoyment is relevant to an extent. As I have moved up the ladder to my latest (non Naim) system, I definitely wouldn’t say that I enjoy music less. However, tinkering with my system(s) to get ‘the very best’ out of them has definitely been a distraction that I no longer have any desire to pursue.

I would not say that I enjoy music less on my current main system than I did on my more modest systems of the past, but I would say that my listening tastes have changed a little and that I tend to listen to a lot of acoustic and semi acoustic music that sounds so magical on my main system. I do probably actively avoid playing on this system some of the badly recorded or sounding items that I might once have enjoyed. However, in my case, I have a second system that is perhaps more suited to some of the ‘louder’ music form my past alter ego and I have a Naim Muso Qb that I use to listen to an eclectic selection of music when I am in my kitchen.

So, I do find myself agreeing with you to an extent, but perhaps one option is to run more than one system if you have enough space to allow this? I am for the most part done with fine system tinkering to reach that almost unachievable ultimate sound.

I have indeed stopped upgrading… can’t believe it myself! Having come from a Uniti to an NDS/252/300 system in a couple of years, I do not feel I am missing out a lot at the moment. Have put together a little olive system just for fun recently, but no major upgrade for almost one year…

Having bought many of my units used, the possible next steps would become way more expensive than what I had suffered up to here. The very tempting NAC552 for example, hard to get used, hardly ever at a manageable price level (for me, that is). New streamer rather expensive compared to my used NDS, and the latter plays very well! Maybe I have spent too much on cameras and the red dot over the last year, so funds have been re-directed also…

So, if I will not find this cheap-perfect-condition-NAC552, my system will stay and bring joy. I should never try the NAC552, just for caution that the illness might come back!

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I think I’ve stopped after years of non-Naim chopping & changing, eventually arriving at a system that does actually provide enormous listening pleasure rather than expose limitations. My dealer recently tried to encourage a move up from the current setup (272/555PS/250DR) with a 282 and a better streamer but the additional cost + box count increment doesn’t appeal one jot tbh. Maybe in a few years, but for now it’s just wonderful. Plus which I sense that helping the offspring achieve their dreams / spread their wings will take priority over ever more adventurous audio gear. :slight_smile:

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I haven’t much to say about the OP, first because I have enjoyed a quasi psychotic roller coaster of up/downgrading over and over for more than ten years. I share most of the hypothetical views that Haim has slipped in in his post, but this is not, IMO, the proper place to promote little cheap systems. I mean, there’s democracy here and essentiality has estimators as much as redundancy, but in general we all know that the Naim Path, if we consider entering the brand and not being able to leave it anymore, is a path of Upgrade, like the promise of an esoteric society.
I have downgraded, though, and stayed there, for the simplest of reasons: a Nait XS2, in my room, makes the S-400s much more organic and enjoyable than my previous Supernait(s).

I may be changing with age, but detail is overrated. I enjoy music per se perfectly from a Squeezebox into a Tivoli One in the morning, with my first and only cup of coffee. The rest is a more or less costly game, for which each has a personal motivation perennially struggling to become an absolute explanation. That’s how I see it.

Max

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i see you have kept the cdx2/ xps2, and use also the nds/555ps. The cdx2 could be sold or does it give you something the nds doesn’t give?

The CDX2/XPS2 is by far my best sounding source. The NDS is by far my most convenient and mostly used source…

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Am I reading that correctly - your CDX2 is better than your NDS? It’s my primary source for ‘serious’ listening as well and I have never felt any desire to upgrade it as it is just great fun. I don’t indulge in hi-fi evenings, even with friends who have at least a passing interest (which most don’t to be honest), but whenever someone has asked to listen to something they are universally astonished at the detail and drive of my set up. They are even more astonished if they enquire how much it all cost!

i am surprised. I had the cdx2/ xps2 before. At the beginning, i felt the cdx2 more dynamic and involving. But now, with a dedicated cisco switch and audioquest diamond ethernet cables, the cdx2 is far , very far. ( not speaking of hirez downloads).