So I tried the preamp at socket 3 and 555DR at 5 (poweramp 1). The piano sounded very powerful but I think the higher frequencies were a bit suppressed so the music was less exciting. So I’m back with 555DR sharing double socket 3. This certainly improves the higher frequencies.
The interconnects are stable now without the partial loops. Remember that electromagnetic induction can be demonstrated with a straight wire carrying a time varying current inducing a similar current in another wire wrapped around it. The bigger the current the bigger the induced current. The more loops the bigger the effect, but even a partial loop is enough. So Burndies and ICs are an issue. But note that if the first wire is bent at one end and brought back through the looped wire the induced current is cancelled out.
I will continue listening and may try a double extension socket to move the pre and 555DR further away. After that I can look at other mains blocks.
Phil, your diligence is commendable but don’t forget the elephant in the room - your rack. A Fraim will do so much more than fiddling with plugging order. It’s easy to spend so much time fiddling and analysing that this takes priority over simply enjoying your music.
Hi Nigel, I am of course curious about what a Fraim might do. You seem to imply that Fraim will make my setup less sensitive to the effect of plug ordering or other mains effects. This seems to be at variance with the view you held about HiFi Racks deadening the sound! I do agree that Naim glass and cups are essential.
I have got to the stage where these tweaks don’t take long and the main cost is the time listening to a range of music. I just hope this thread does not become like the Ethernet cable mania thread. I hope we can stick to there being some scientific basis albeit that the best approach is to experiment. I think I saw you had sold your AQ Vodka and now use something less expensive.
I also hope that by pooling experience we can help all Naim owners get the best out of systems in terms of musical enjoyment. I’m close now and would only tweak further if I heard another system of similar spec knocking spots off mine.
I’m not going to add the separate consumer unit at present because there is room for believing that I already have a very good earth arrangement. I’m not knocking the advice, but just suggesting that other factors can effect whether there is a need.
All I’m suggesting is that Fraim would be a step change rather than a marginal improvement. It’s all your choice but I believe a separate CU is pretty fundamental to the mains and that it’s best to get the infrastructure right before looking at mains blocks etc. It’s not expensive either. Wise man builds his house on rock and all that.
We will have to agree to differ particularly about the role of science versus dogma. I prefer science. Do I really want to buy minimum of 2 Fraim bases with 2 tall shelves and 6 standard shelves costing approximately £8k just to assuage others? Not really. The comparison with other systems doesn’t make me feel mine is lacking at present.
Fraim is a big hurdle to get over if you’ve built a substantial system before considering it and try getting a dealer to demonstrate it. You’re basically just buying on the trust you’ve developed of Naim and/or your dealer. I still have 5 Lite shelves left in my stacks from a cautious approach (2 lower base shelves, one under the turntable and the DVD5 and tuner are on Lite). At least you can listen to what a block does to your system before buying it, or not.
Fraim does make a large improvement and lets the Naim boxes sing as they really should.
It was a lot of money for me with all the Active system boxes, but well worth it and once you have it then you have it forever and it is done.
The mains stuff is a separate important aspect but you need to balance all the system aspects that together lead to the musical performance you are wanting to achieve - I still have a few things to explore myself ahead, but I’ve reached the threshold where the variation in performance is now always above a threshold where I just enjoy my system, so although I enjoy finding new improvements it does not have the visceral drive to attain satisfaction that once drove me to understand what was going on and how to get it right.
The Fraim IMO is essential in you are at 252-300 level and above. Unless you have found something better and had the demo against Fraim and think you have a better product you are really cheating yourself of what you could be getting and have paid for with your system.
Fraim allows everything to just work - it is ‘quiet’ and ‘dark’ when you experience its effect - bass is a lot cleaner and murk gone and the music sings and is tuneful. It actually sounds like someone at Naim voiced it for their ‘house sound’ not surprisingly.
It does not make other things unimportant but it helps things come together musically with the Naim system boxes that it is a clear obvious upgrade - when you can afford it - and much much more important than fancy cables, etc - do it before using Super Lumina and the like as it acts as the foundation of clarity for all that to work right IMO.
Unless you have a better HiFi rack you have compared and prefer - in which case it would be great to know what it is?
I’m comfortable enough with a half way house using Fraim glass and cups. I’m not doubting the benefits of a structure using slightly different materials, and if I heard a 500 Series system sounding better to my ear than mine then I would. I’m sure @Darkebear’s would but I don’t live in that part of the UK, and I’m not up for Statement and Active with 3 500DRs!
It’s a hobby and I know my system can make blissful music across the range. At the moment I’m just tuning and have enjoyed getting a better understanding of mains issues. Experimenting with blocks will come.
It was just to emphasis balance - if you have set up a good support you are happy works well then at least you have addressed that.
It is more to ensure when looking at ‘extras’ like mains blocks, cables and the like some consideration is taken of what the HiFi sits on.
Many may think it is just aesthetics but it really is not that at all for me.
Once I heard what Fraim did I had to have it. In fact until I wanted to try it from my Dealer he did not even stock it for use and had to get it in just for me to try. I did home-demo it as I always do when possible.
The Dealer now uses Fraim for all their Naim kit, but do stock several other brands for people to try and there are different results with some even more expensive HiFi supports that the Dealer thinks better with non-Naim large Amps than Fraim does - but I don’t think Fraim for Naim boxes has been bettered.
Just to flag that it does matter and if anyone is thinking of spending a lot on cables and other accessories I’d suggest getting a demo of the same or less money spent on Fraim and it may be a bit of a shock.
DB, I’ve always appreciated your advice. Fraim and some of these other tweaks remain on the table. The perplexing thing at the moment is that each mains plug arrangement has a different sonic signature! I’m back preferring where I began 4-5 days ago with the power supplies in the first two double sockets. Natalie Merchant’s voice on her Ophelia album is captivating and all the instruments also. Moving the preamp and 555DR away from the poweramp created varying degrees of hardness in the bass and colourations that I dislike. Once again there is plenty of bass and everything is natural but vibrant - I feel the mastering/mixing of this album may have been biased to lesser systems bass wise.
Phil, I fully appreciate that moving to Fraim is a massive psychological hurdle to overcome and I was in exactly your place before moving from essentially what you have to Fraim. For me it was a significant improvement over the oak hifi racks-like support (even with the glass, cups and balls) and once you bite the bullet and get it in place you’ll be kicking yourself you didn’t do it sooner. With a system at the level you have it really seems a no brainer. That said, I know you know exactly what you are doing and you’ll likely not be persuaded to move to Fraim just because others here who have one tell you it’s a good idea! And there is plenty of merit in that👍🏻
Hi Clive, Nice to get some agreement. On the Ophelia track, I’ve got to the stage of hearing all the background chatter towards the end and it moves around! Quite nerdy, but I suppose it says something about the system and it setup. It is very relevant because our experience is that mains does matter. So mains block are just one part of it. Stupidly I put the nDAC Powerline Lite plug nearer to the other supplies and that’s when I noticed the chatter more clearly.
Hi Dave, we have had a similar journey so I understand where you are coming from.
The experimental physicist in me, admitted nearing 50 years since I did my research at Oxford, just says the effect of the variables have got to be properly understood. Admittedly most of the measurements are done with the ears.
I understand some of the variables you are dealing with. I’d probably have to take the carpet up and lay something else under the racks and speakers to be able to use chips for the base. I asked my wife and she said no way! Don’t want to add the cost of a divorce to it!
The best I can hope to do is listen to music I know on other people’s systems.
Why would you need Naim Chips, Phil? I never used them until I moved to a solid wood floor. In your carpeted lounge the spikes on the base of the Fraim would simply penetrate the carpet to make contact with the floor beneath, which is probably what you’re doing already with the HiFi Racks.
Hi Clive, I found that the spikes on the racks and speakers took quite a while to settle in. Dave needed chips with his wooden floor that is carpeted. I kind of imagined that Fraim needed the works to guarantee a consistent sound - if I did it (a big if) I would not want the uncertainty. Fortunately my floor is solid (no under floor insulation either) so I don’t need to do anything there!
Hi Phil - I just cut 6 small slits in the carpet and pushed the Fraim chips underneath and on to the chipboard below. Then the Fraim base spikes went through those slits and onto the chips and the slits cover up nicely so you’d not know they were down there. It’s actually really straightforward.
Hi Dave, my condition for a Fraim demo is to hear a system that wows me more than what I have. Thanks the advice is good. The musicality I had has returned with the mains plugs being more or less returned to the same plug order. In fact with the nDAC plug moved closer to the plugs of the big PSs and the Rega Aria no longer on the dedicated HiFi it’s even better. It’s really making early Genesis sound perfect. There is a clarity of all the complex sounds that is highly musical at the same time without being congested or overbearing.
