Next upgrade: more from the bass!

Those funny little black things things with ~4" drivers won’t add much bass to tge PMC (BB5?) in tge bass… But a pair of - are they BB5s? - placed right in the corners would certainly be capable of considerable bass loudness and depth in the room (cancellations permitting).

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being careful: had me read the whole thread; I factored the OP has spent a lot of time with regards to placement.

I took onboard that they even moved furniture to allow for ultimate position to be found.

I gather it gets confusing with other posters postulating that certain positions might be needed for certain genres etc, but I stand true to the OP sounding like they know what they are doing, and has been very happy trialing out locations.

getting back to the question actually asked, and rather than running the ‘everyone knows better and the REAL answer REQUIRES doing something else (eg subwoofer and different speakers etc)’(not the OPs desire, remember they said the 34:33:32’ish ratio, and would be happy with ~1% ‘extra’); the OPs question actually is perfect candidacy for ‘cable tuning’.

figured would be nice if someone chimed in "not mad! “go for it”
OP seems mature enough to ALSO reposition
no loss
(no harm, no foul)

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a pair of neat iotas for scale next to the BB5 - they are currently at basically sound, taken in part ex

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I was offered a chance to listen to the BB5 when I did an audition of PMC models from Twenty-26 upwards. I declined, stopping at MB2, on both price and size grounds. Seeing that pic, they don’t actually look so big as to be an issue. But if I were ever to want more, I think I’d add the MB2XBDs

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252/SC or speakers

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Thank you for all the advice. I found a well priced second hand HiLine and another PowerLine. I’m hoping the HiLine will bring a bit more clarity and may allow me to move my speaker back a tad. I should really have one anyway. I will experiment with he new PowerLine on the HiCap vs 555ps.

After that, I’m thinking a HiCap DR (all second hand now!). I can then experiment with either just that, or two HiCaps (I’m a little worried having both DR and non DR versions, if they power a channel each)

Once that is all sorted, I can demo some power blocks that might give me more “umph”. I will probably buy this new, so can can demo a few and see which works best?

That’s one plan anyway. All plans change :joy:

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You need speakers with more cone area. Skip cables and other tweaks.

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I was thinking along the lines that this would be where you would find ‘easy’ success.

Fifteen years ago I discovered ‘Thor’ powerboards (no relevance except for the story I am about to share)…

For a small outlay I took home a high grade eight outlet powerboard, made by a local company optimised for Australian conditions. This was prior to the company being obtained by Monster (they rebranded locally as Powerguard is my understanding).

The powerboard enveloped the signal, and better than just stopping ‘spikes’, it also curtailed brownouts (a drop in voltage from the peak of the electrical wave that much equipment misses guarding against).

This high quality power board was amazing as it was like moving ALL my components up a tier in quality.
the background was blacker, the imaging clearer, and the sense of engaging with music had been improved.

sure the kit running on it was ‘reasonably good’ (Teac P700/Denon DCDS10/Parasound HD1100 DAC/Musical Fidelity pre/Quad 303 power amp)… but what I easily noticed with ‘improved power’ was the better, tighter bass notes, that felt like they went deeper.

When I first read @richardjpatersons’ post, I knew that the likelyness of finding success through sorting out power delivery, for the paulty improvement being sought, was what I would consider ‘a given’.

The reason people play with cables AFTER they have every else sorted, to my understanding, is ‘hobby money’ tweaking a finished setup.
stability in the install (including ‘speaker positions sorted’) allows one to experience just the differences that are introduced via the change.

I try to go at least six months of ‘no modifications’ (including speakers positions) in order to actually review the changes I do make.
The stability of the testing rig takes out variables I just don’t want to have to keep track of.

(its bad enough having to contemplate equipment settling and random grid power quality, itself affected by season and neighbours running aircon/heating etc)

less variables means what things I do experience are potentially ‘controlled’.
bass quality that sounds like it comes from a sub is something bookshelf speakers can deliver; tower speakers in a tight room space with the front end kit the OP has; definitely room for tweakage!

all the best in the revelations forthcoming :slight_smile:

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Remember also that the T606s can be run in active mode, which will give a more defined bass, but this is more than a tweak.

This could be something considered for the future, but would require a second NAP 300, external crossover and another run of speaker cables.

Hope that you get the sound that you’re looking for.

DG…

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You have a top notch set up and am sure sounds excellent as is.
Most that have your speakers have them closer to the wall which I’m sure would increase bass response.
Your issue is that when you do this the midrange/treble is smeared I assume by reflections - so I’d focus on trying to reduce those if possible. Something as simple as toeing in may help here.
Enjoy the music.

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SUPERCAP I’m guessing will help having never heard a hicap. i would also change to CHORD Epic XL speaker cables. The Chord produced more bass than the NAC A5 for me which I was surprised by. I would NOT add a subwoofer as that will completely mess up the timing of the Naim-Kudos system.

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Interesting to read comments about subs.
I recently acquired 606s as an upgrade for the fronts of my AV system, driven by a 250DR (sourced new at a bargain price).
The REL 9 in av setup, does what is needed at the appropriate moments for films. Whether I have set totally correctly, I have no idea and any tweaking will await new processor and full ARC optimisation with microphone.
Room characteristics and speaker positioning are far from ideal.
However the processor can select stereo or stereo + sub.

Playing music through the 606s, it was very obvious the sub muddied the sound and adversely impacted the sound stage. With tracks I use for such auditioning, I soon reverted to stereo only. Interesting that I think it was @Simon-in-Suffolk made a similar observation earlier in the thread.
Naturally listening in ones own environment is critical, but I would caution 606s with a sub, without careful assessment. Interestingly in a carpeted room, I am not sure the 606s gained by adding Isoacoustic Gaias; ymmv.

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For music the sub must be one designed for that, as opposed to being designed for maximising cinema sound effects. Also, despite common belief, my understanding is that siting can be critical, and great care is required to set up correctly.

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I have REL subs in two different systems, one of them being a T9/x. Both systems have subs perfectly integrated with the speakers, with absolutely no timing issues and an enhanced sound stage. In both cases, muddied sound is a sign that the sub volume is too high. Once I adjust the volume the issue goes away.

The speakers aren’t 606s though.

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Agree Clog, it takes a while to dial them in for sure but once dialled in they really do make a difference - I use stereo real s510’s with my ATC speakers.

Gary

Kudos don’t recommend a toe-in, but I thought I would live dangerously today :joy:. I have moved them back a little (40cm from wall) until the point where I think the midrange is smeared, then toed them in a little and this did help :+1:
Bass also sharpened up a little by putting cushions behind the speakers. I have no idea if this is a common thing to do, never seen it on here before? I have seen acoustic panels directly behind speaker though.

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Thanks @whitedragem this is what I’m hoping to achieve too :+1:

That is creating some bass absorption. Proper bass panels are likely to be even more effective. the toe-in reduces radiated sound to the external sides, reducing the intensity of early reflections. The fact that Kudos doesn’t specifically recommend it is irrelevant - all rooms are different and you have to suit the room, if not done already, you could experiment with different degrees.

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Putting panels in behind can be very beneficial IME – especially the 1200 x 600mm sized ones, which you can often colour-palette match in to your space.

FYI, when I spoke to GIK (Luca), he wasn’t overly fussed with windows, as these are relatively acoustically porous compared to walls, albeit DG units are far less so than ordinary single pane glass – but having put a panel in front of my DG-doors/windows behind my 'speakers, there was a noticeable difference for the better.

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not ‘pretty’ to look at, but using an old set of speakers (even if the surrounds are perished), and bridging the terminals (positive and negative joined with a bit of cable, but not actually wired up to an amp), can act as a bass trap, and can do wonders placed in room corner(s).

I’ve been in music rooms where every reflection has been mathmatically accounted for, and appropriately spaced dampners put in place…
I have a friend in an apartment who needs some special hangings in place for when he likes the curtain/door open (to the balcony).
My den setup is based on ‘doors being closed’, but when they are open I lose my nice extension to the side and back walls (that makes the music come from ‘all round’).

Much experimentation is ‘hard to beat’…
the math gets a person pretty much there,… and some live off that ‘holy grail’ alone.
“rules of thirds” and 'all that…

great guides out there,… it is amazing how such a slight +/- on some ‘toe in’ can change up the sound SO much.

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