Not if the switch is 2 floors away separed from the LAN port in the living room by 20m of CAT6e.
In my last property it was in a 21u server rack 2 rooms away. In the next it will be in the garage still in a server rack.
I can’t see isolating it from microphonics in either scenario will be beneficial. I suppose one could put another switch on the audio rack but I’m very sure more is being gained via physical distance to the switch than isolating it.
If someone feels it should be treated as a hifi component, well it’s their money so no skin off my back. The most I am doing is moving from a Planex 16 port switch to a Yamaha low noise switch from their pro-audio range - also a server rack mount configuration.
Not at all, if you read my posts over the last 15 years or so…I am not doubting the people tune interference and other interactions, including room reflections to produce a pleasing system, as indeed I have done. My point is state that, rather try and justify it in fanciful spurious theories, unless you can support them… if you like how something sounds, state it, why does it need some piece of science fiction to try and justify it… it’s as if you have little confidence in your assertion…
I also point out how the manufacturer we tend to discuss here, use these principles of noise / digital interference tuning to create and adjust the sonic performance of their products… and even here there is so, I understand, a degree of trial and error. So with Naim, like the rest of us, no one knows it all… but we do understand a basic bedrock of engineering principles… because some of us have worked most of our careers as design engineers in networks, IT, systems, digital AV and electronics… and it is quite frankly disingenuous to disregard the views of a lifelong development of principles and learning… and I suspect you may even use technology and services I have helped develop collaboratively over the years when you next turn on your Sky box TV, stream your next YouTube, or Facebook video, buy something online, or take advantage of your home internet broadband… if we didn’t know a bed rock here… you wouldn’t be able to enjoy these services… and I am personally very proud to have had my part and hopefully continue to have my part in the development of these technologies for the benefit and enjoyment of much of the worlds population… and closer to home I had my part in the development of the humble ‘audiophile’ switch, which I discovered as a by product of using engineering principles in hunting down RFI causing intermodulation artefacts on my Naim tuner all those years ago.
So sure no one knows it all… but some of us when we hear or notice something unusual or different, if we have the curiosity, engineering prowess and capability we investigate where we can and share the learning we may find for the benefit of others whether it be privately or professionally.
I can’t help thinking you’ve introduced an idea, didn’t like the answers and had your leg pulled a bit.
Full disclosure, I’m in the sceptics camp and used gut instinct to conclude it’s not worth the time, cost or effort to me.
You sound a bit sciency, so why not use scientific method to test your hypothesis and then report back. I’ll be delighted for you if you discover something new which has a material effect.
Otherwise, see this as just a lively debate where you have to take the rough with the smooth.
Not sure what you are getting at Simon. I wasn’t trying to justify anything nor introduce any fanciful spurious theories.
I am aware that some people report sonic benefits from placing their router on some kind of isolation support, much the same as with their hi-fi. I do not pretend to have any idea why this should be. Perhaps it is linked to vibration/microphony or perhaps not.
I was curious as to other people’s experiences with regard to this. Mostly the answers I received have been dismissive and fairly irritating rather than helpful and constructive. If people think that there is nothing to be gained from isolating the router then why not just say so politely? No need for all the mickey-taking etc.
Sometimes I find this forum to be populated by helpful people who share my enthusiasm for audio and are only too willing to discuss with me any concerns or ideas I have. Oddly, at other times, the response is almost entirely negative and unhelpful. I don’t think I’ve asked a stupid question and I don’t think it deserves stupid answers.
No matter. I’ve put my router on little home-made (Ikea chopping board) stand and we’ll see. It would have been lovely if I could have got some sensible and kind feedback from others but obviously it’s not to be, save for one or two people who have provided helpful responses.
Clearly with this forum if one asks the ‘wrong’ question then one will be mercilessly thrown to the lions. Disappointing.
Strange that these discussions get so polarised. As Pete01 clearly points out there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in a simple scientific philosophy.
I’m reminded that science still can not explain gravity on both the macro and micro scale despite some of the finest minds in the world working on it for more than a few hundred years.
Matter only makes up about 5% of the universe that we know and see. Science doesn’t have a clue what 95% of the rest is? We know that a quantum world exists but we can’t measure it. As soon as we do it’s no longer in the quantum world.
We think of electrons in a piece of wire moving around that will eventually end up at our ears as sound. That’s what we see and hear in the macro world. In the quantum ‘micro’ world there’s a whole lot more going on in that piece of wire that we can’t begin to understand or imagine.
Why should it be difficult to believe that with a complex and sensitive audio system some people can hear small changes that can’t be explained by what science knows today?
Thank you Geko for the most balanced, sensible and helpful response of the entire thread. This is exactly the sort of thing that I would have hoped the community as whole would have offered rather than the sarcasm, bland dismissiveness and plain nastiness on display. Makes me question why I would want to be part of a community comprising of such people. Perhaps I don’t.
I am a simple soul and am quite happy with the idea that things may make a difference but I don’t understand why. I’m fine with that but others less so. If someone puts an isolation platform under a router and the music sounds better to them, that’s all that matters.
I’d gently suggest that perhaps you did get quite confrontational in some of your responses, which raised the temperature unnecessarily. That is a shame as the discussion then becomes an argument and people can take increasingly polarised views and it ultimately gets us nowhere.
None of this is ultimately remotely important and it’s simply not worth getting confrontational about.
I have 2 very simple questions
Can anyone describe what is actually happening physically (at the particle and energy-field levels) when a circuit or component is energised with electricity?
Does anyone know how that process is influenced by vibration? Is it altered, disturbed, changed, immune?
Brilliant questions and almost certainly the answer is no.
That’s not to say it isn’t possible. With the right [expensive] equipment, and the knowledge to interpret the results correctly and devise a controlled test, it is possible to measure microphonics entering a device via a cable. And with an oscillascope of sufficient resolution and the right types of probes, determine what, if any, impact this has on a test signal. I should reiterate this is non trivial. Equipment, expense, expertise.
At the most basic level you are dealing with the laws of electromagnetism. You cannot have one without the other. Electricity induces magnetism and magnetism induces electricity. That’s a fairly dangerous oversimplification but is a good starting point. One could ask whether vibrations of a ferrous material induces a change in current on a carrier signal within it’s proximity. But that’s largely a fool’s errand. Logically, you start with measurement to capture observable phenomenon. And if they exist, then conduct experiments to prove/ disprove a hypothesis for that observation. That starts to edge into more than electrical engineering. Possibly experimental physics. Once you get there though, the next logical question is, are my cloth ears really more sensitive instruments than all the equipment needed to prove/disprove this? And was it worth the time?
The last question was rhetorical. Think of all the music you could have listened to instead of pondering all that.
Peter, remember this is a public forum where the only common interest is Naim and hifi. You will get all sorts of ‘personalities’ posting on here with all sorts of differing opinions. For the most part, discussions on here are civil and constructive, despite differing views.
There are one or two topic areas however that seem to get Forumites overly excited, for example cables (analogue, power and ethernet) and some topics related to LANs (switches and other network devices). This might be because there are a bunch of theories in circulation which some care about and others don’t.
Believe me this forum is a delight compared to some of the other hifi/streaming forums.
Personally I am interested when someone posts a positive finding from a rather low cost change, and what’s not to like with a cheap/free upgrade. I have fettled and tweaked many times based on ‘findings’ on here. Some made no difference, others produced a nice uplift (be that from better SQ or just tuning/room interaction effects) and some made the listening experience worse. I embrace those that work and reject the others.
I too believe we are dealing with complex and sensitive systems here, and I include the ear/brain as well as digital/analogue systems and acoustics, and that apparently minor/insignificant changes can affect what we are hearing. Although I am an engineer by trade and have an interest in science, I do not need an explanation of what physical, electrical, magnetic, acoustic phenomena are causing the change in sound, but am always interested to read about theories and proven explanations, where they exist.
So I would encourage anyone who has a theory of how to make their system sound better, and are inquisitive enough, to experiment/explore and feed back here. There should be no pressure to justify how their perceived improvement has been caused. All you need to do is just end the post with ‘….this may not work in your system but why not give it a go and see…’.
Very true Nigel. The level of excitement - in terms of potential for excessive grouchyness and entrenched position-taking - seems to be inversely proportional to the significance of the component in the scheme of things.
People can chatter away quite happily about turntables, about amplifiers and about speakers, accept that tastes vary wildly and not fall out. Yet introduce routers, switches and ethernet cables into the discussion and all hell breaks loose. People get more and more bogged down in their arguments and simply won’t budge. It’s all most strange.
I know I said above that I’m a simple soul but I’m not really, I’m scientifically trained, but I’m more than happy to accept that there is loads out there we don’t understand and probably never will. Good scientists always accept that they only know a small amount and that there is just so much more to know. I find it very narrow minded when people trot out the line ‘I’m a X engineer and I know that what you are saying cannot be the case’. Why can’t putting a router on a chopping board, a piece of carpet or whatever make a difference? It’s simply a case of trying things out. But people shouldn’t say it can’t without trying it, because maybe, just maybe, it can.
And it is this that gets my goat. It’s as if some are of the opinion that this change cannot make a difference so I won’t lower myself to even try it, and then tell those with more open minds why this tweak is nonsense.
If you have tried a tweak and it doesn’t work in your system than we need to know, because that information is as valuable as the claim that it did work for someone else. For example, we have learned, or at least I have, that the effect of certain Ethernet cables and Ethernet devices is very system dependent, particularly the streamer and other attached devices, possibly why we have had so many ‘lively debates’ on here about streaming cables for example. So it is perfectly possible for the effect of any tweak to be (partly) system dependent. Therefore differing opinions on the effect of a given tweak can be perfectly valid and even an objective view of the actual effect in our particular system.
The more experiences of a given tweak we can gather, the greater the knowledge and learning. But it needs an open mind and a bit of effort to actually try out some tweaks.
I accept some will have no interest in fiddling, fettling and tweaking, and that is fine. All I would say is that my system would not sound as good as is does today without some of the tweaks reported on here. Tweaking can be fun and occasionally gets you a free or very cheap upgrade.
I won’t waste more of my time, but just one thing; The proposed experiment aimed at testing YOUR hypothesis that vibration has an effect not mine. Get off your fake horse
