I’m currently in the process of a system upgrade from a NDX/202/200DR to a NDX/282/250DR and my speakers are ATC SCM11’s but I’m also considering upgrading to SCM40’s. Now I’ve had this QED speaker cable for a long time and I guess it was fairly budget quality at the time but for the system I had it on it was fine. However, in the existing 202/200DR set up it could probably be upgraded and almost certainly with the 282/250DR but I’m not really up to snuff on speaker cable. I’ll be looking for 2x4m and I guess my budget will be ~£300.
I have 3 questions.
[1] Would I be better bi-wiring cheaper cable or running a better quality single speaker cable and using jumpers across the speaker terminals?
[2] Anyone with this or a similar set up have any recommendations for a better speaker cable and what can I expect from the upgrade? Chord seem to provide plenty of options from reasonable to eye-wateringly expensive.
[3] And this one might prove contentious. How much snake oil is there regarding speaker cable? I can’t beleive that some of this more esoteric cable can improve a bunch of electronics so much.
Do not biwire, it’s not recommended by Naim. If you unscrew the terminal plate on the ATCs you can revert easily move both pairs of cables to a single connector. You avoid the need for jumpers and it’s free.
Naim’s own NAC A5 is excellent, while Kudos KS-1 is similarly good and a lot smaller and more flexible. Keep an eye on eBay or Pink Fish and get a used pair, if you don’t like the results you can easily sell it on.
That’s interesting regarding Naim not recommending bi-wiring. Why’s that? I know they say no speaker run should be shorter than 3.5m which is probably to do with the impedence presented to the amp and so maybe that’s it.
Also I should mention that I was using my Linn Keilidhs up until last week when I swapped them out for my SCM’s. I’m currently running the 282 into the 200DR until I can get hold of a 250DR. If I can’t bi-wire the speakers then does that mean I can’t wire in my subwoofer. I only tended to use the subwoofer when watching films on TV and usually left it off when listening to music. The Keilidhs didn’t need it and so I just wanted to try it with the SCM’s. I last used the subwoofer with some Totem speakers through some Linn LK240 monoblocks. I still also have the Totems so I might even audition them again when I get the 250DR. They are glorious speakers and have a crystal clear sound but needed a bit more low end grunt to go with them.
You would normally connect the sub to the speakers, not the power amp, so that the amp doesn’t ‘see’ the sub cable, for much the same reason as not using biwire cables.
Alternatively use a low level sub connection from the preamp output. On paper many subs are best used with the speaker connection, but the low level connection from the pre can still work well.
@HungryHalibut and @ChrisSU thanks chaps. I never considered wiring the sub from the speakers. Presumably you wire is off just the one speaker. I would have thought that would unbalance the right and left speaker load. I’ll need to go and search for the relevant threads. I guess my OP has exposed one or two other considerations.
Of the original questions
[1] has been answered
[2] has been partially answered with a couple of suggestions. I’m assuming that the QED cable is now the weak link in the signal chain but this is primarly based on the fact that’s it’s cheap and you get what you pay for up to a point, which brings me back to question [3]. I think that’s a whole subject in itself though.
You need to wire from both speakers, otherwise you’ll get bass from just one channel. You can also wire from the back of a Hicap or Supercap, if your sub supports line level inputs, using a special lead with a 100R resistor at the source end. If you have a REL sub, you actually can wire direct from the amp speaker sockets if you use their special Naim variant Bassline Blue cable, which has the correct resistance and also has piggy back banana connectors. That’s all bases covered in three sentences.
Nothing wrong with your setup (I love the 202/200DR, I have it as well), however may I ask why not upgrading the source? The NDX2 is so much better and your system would shine in comparison. Also I wonder why you don’t consider a PSU for the 202, that would be a nice upgrade too (even a modest FlatCap XS. A HiCap would be more suited for a future 282).
By the way among the cables I’ve tried I do like the Nordosts starting from the Blue Heaven series. Quite punchy and clear/detailed sound. I tried QED cables before, IMO they are far from that despite being good ones. It depends on what you look for. However you should look at the s/h market for that price in case you are interested.
Personally I think that some cables can make a huge difference but I only believed it after experimenting it myself. Before hearing it with my own ears, I just thought it was a bit crazy.
@Blacknote Thanks for the reply. In answer to your question then yes I do intend to update the source from NDX to NDX2 (or maybe something else) after the 250DR. I also realise that upgrading the NDX for the NDX2 first is probably the more logical order to do things. The reason I’m not is that I may want to keep hold of the 200DR for a second system which will replace the amp in DACv1/NAP100 system. I also have a Qute2. Decisions decisions. Something will have to go at some point. I may just stick with the second system as is and sell both 202/200DR but I agree they are a great combination. I’m not sure how much better the 282/250DR will be but I’m now committed on that upgrade. Thanks for the cable suggestion. Hadn’t considered Nordost.
Oh and @Blacknote I have a HiCap (not the DR version) in a drawer in my office doing nothing and a NAPSC which came with the 282. The reason for not employing the HiCap was rack space. I have 6 shelves and they are all full. Top shelf has a Headline/NAPSC + Lehmann Linear Black Cube + Musical Fidelity heavily upgraded X-Can v1 on there. Yes I know. 3 headphone amps. In my own messed up way I like all of them. The X-Can for it’s valve sound and of the Naim and Lehmann they are different but overall I think the Lehmann has the edge. If I stick to the one headphone amp that frees up space for the HiCap and the NAPSC.
I really enjoyed my 282/200DR, even without a Hicap. With hindsight I preferred the 200 to the 250DR, which I wasn’t expecting. Either way, it’s an amp that deserves a better source than an NDX, and I would say that even an NDX2 needed either a power supply upgrade or a DAC upgrade to hold its own.
As you’re short of space you’ll need to take care with setup. The preamp in particular really needs its own shelf, preferably the top shelf with careful cable dressing. The NAPSC (both of them in your case) has a long lead and can be hidden on the floor, maybe under the rack.
@Devil_20 Personally I’m very happy with the NDX2 and the sound made a giant leap forward after changing interconnects, I’d say it was a really wow moment for me. In my personal view and experience the 202/200DR has a lot to give and needs a proper optimization to show it, that’s why I’m not yet keen on upgrading it. I’ve heard the 222 and 332, but the latter did not impress me enough even to fantasize about it (maybe I didn’t hear it in the proper conditions, who knows; I’d be curious to test it again and see if I change idea). Unluckily I’ve never tested a 282, I would be curious considering how much it is regarded in this forum.
Proper cables will open up the soundstage, detail and overall clarity quite substantially and bass can become more textured as well as punchy. That’s been my experience with Nordost, I’ve been very happy so far. The only real drawback is the price, only you can decide if it’s worth it or not. I personally think it is, especially the Frey 2. By the way you should also consider power cables too. Anyway they’ll be a worthy upgrade for the 282 as well, I’m sure.
@ChrisSU What did you prefer about the 200? I’ve only heard the NC250 and, despite being great, I feel as if it is too much in control, a bit too composed for my taste.
There’s some interesting observations there. I thought ideally the 282/250 and the 202/200 were designed to be paired together but maybe that’s not necessarily true. Maybe I should hang fire on the 250 for now and concentrate on the source upgrade. I was considering the NDX2 as the obvious upgrade but I’m not necessarily tied to Naim for that but there is the convenience of using a single app if I do so.
Just getting back to the speaker cable for a moment. Are there any to particularly avoid that could damage the amps by dint of their impedence or capacitance. You don’t always get the technical specification for the cables but if I know what parameters are out of bounds that may help whittle down to a manageable list. I heard somewhere that Chord cable isn’t really suitable for Naim amps but not sure where I read that. Possibly here. Why’s that then?
I’d keep it simple and stick with those commonly used by Naim owners: Naim, Chord, Kudos, Tellurium Q, along which good cables at sensible prices. There are lots of others of course, just avoid those that depart too far from NACA5 specifications, and particularly those with a woven Litz construction. There are stacks of threads about speaker cables in here.
