Most with the eR get an immediate uplift followed by a long burn in.
If the dealer donāt take care of the burn in of a demo product, itās not a very good dealer I would say. All dealers that I have been in contact with over the years have had this under full control.
I always ask about the āmileageā when borrowing a demo product. In most cases (to not say all), the dealer can answer for how long they have had the product as demo and if a relatively new product they can estimate the amount of hours the product have been running.
Where do you shop? It dos not sound very serious to let customers borrow demo products that donāt perform at its bestā¦
Yes, I have seen that. Thank you for mentioning it, Michael!
I did not express myself very well (English is not my native language).
I have tested ER + LPS-1.2 + Farad DC-cable in my own system. With that test Iām estimating that Melco S100 is on a similar level performance wise. It can be a little better or a little worse.
My point was that after testing the ER and assuming that the Melco S100 is on a similar performance level I donāt really see a big need to go through with all the hard work of arranging a home demo of the Melco.
Where I shop is totally irrelevant. Loan equipment is usually fully run in and home demos are quite extended, not just a couple of days. And thatās the point that I was making.
Still, if you are happy with a couple of days, there really is no problem.
Here I definitely share MarcusMās opinion,.a knowledgeable retailer shall Always take care of the break in of a demo product.
If you donāt do that,.youāre not serious.
And lacks a deeper understanding of how a better music-system works,.and interacts with the products in the system.
This is so obvious,.so it should not even need to be discussed.
/Pederš
Where I shop is totally irrelevant. Loan equipment is usually fully run in and home demos are quite extended, not just a couple of days. And thatās the point that I was making.
Still, if you are happy with a couple of days, there really is no problem.
Good that the demo equipment that you can borrow also have been ābroken inā. Then we have the same experience!
The Swedish market is far from as big as the market in UK. The dealer have one product if we are lucky. They are not very keen on letting you borrow the product for several weeks (as you can read here on the forum, is possible in UK).
If another potential customer enters their shop they off course want some equipment to demo in the shop. Itās quite common that you borrow a product on a Friday and returning it on the Monday after, here in Sweden.
For most equipment a weekend (up to 4-5 days) is enough to figure out how that product performs. If Iām not impressed/convinced after that time I will not make a purchaseā¦
Thank you for your contribution Peder,
The ādiscussionā started (thanks to IB) with equipment effectively being shipped on a trial basis, probably with the goods returned if not to the customerās liking. This did not sound like the dealer shipping in a demo product, but a new one.
My opinion, based on this ādiscussionā was that āa couple of daysā was far too short to form a satisfactory assessment of the product, especially since others had reported very long burn-in periods.
Of course, if you are now making it clear that said product(s) is being shipped 500km on a demonstration basis only, and (as would normally be expected) is a fully run-in demo piece of equipment to be returned and replaced with new product if the customer likes the end result, then the discussion has usefully clarified an otherwise ambiguous situation.
The ādiscussionā started (thanks to IB) with equipment effectively being shipped on a trial basis, probably with the goods returned if not to the customerās liking. This did not sound like the dealer shipping in a demo product, but a new one.
For clarity, when I last did that myself, comparing Dave and Hugo TT, the units were demo models, and when I bought Dave I had to return the demo model and wait for a new one because at that point they didnāt want to let go of their demo one because at that time there was a waiting list. Trial period was undefined, nominally āup to a couple of weeks or soā, though I decided quicker.
My suggestion to Marcus was simplified - and of course it might be that dealer would be happy to sell a demo model.
Of course, not everything needs burn-in, but that is a different topicā¦
Of course, not everything needs burn-in, but that is a different topicā¦
Itās Not My Experience,.so it would be interesting to briefly hearā¦
What products youāre referring to,.that donāt get better by sitting for a long time (burn-in),in the music-system.
Example:
Below we have four Powercablesā¦
ā¢ All are burn-in in exactly 300 hours.
ā¢ All four are exactly the same length 1.5m.
ā¢ All have the same cable,Jorma Design Duality.
The only difference is,.that these four powercables have different quality-level of contacts.
From the top,.and then downwards,we haveā¦
ā¢ Furutech FI-E50 NCF,.their best contact.
ā¢ Furutech FI-E50,.their second best contact.
ā¢ Oyaide F1/M1,.their best contact.
ā¢ Oyaide P/C 004,.their second best contact.
And all these powercables got significantly better after 300 hours of burn-in.
So it would be interesting to hearā¦
What products youāre referring to,.that donāt get better by sitting for a long time (burn-in),in the music-system.?
/Pederš¤
My point was that after testing the ER and assuming that the Melco S100 is on a similar performance level I donāt really see a big need to go through with all the hard work of arranging a home demo of the Melco.
Of courseā¦ I hope that didnāt come out sounding like criticism.
My only point, I suppose, is that if you can get it posted out for a trial (rather than go on a 1,000 km round trip) it may be worth it if you find that, much to your surprise, you prefer how it sounds. Iām not in the Melco camp and have already popped down the EtherRegen rabbit hole. Whatās more Iām going to stay there, not because I donāt think there may be something better around, but because I am fairly sure that a new wave of better similar products will be appearing in the coming year/s. It may be why I donāt try the external clocks. But if I wasnāt already an EtherRegen owner, Iād certainly try both of the switches if I could do so easily.
Firstly let me ask you: have you listened to these āburnt inā cables in direct A-B comparison to brand new cables, as blind tests?
āāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāāā-
To answer your question is probably easiest to refer you initially to this post from another thread, which gives an overall summary:
Speakers certainly can change as the compliance of the suspension alters with use, initially it can be quite significant, then very gradual ageing over decades. Some components within electronic boxes may change with heat during initial periods of use, and then might gradually change with age or more drastically at great age. Component values may change with heat, and make a difference to sound between when cold and when at working temperature. Conceivably, copper (or silver or whatever) wire, ā¦
Meanwhile this post in another thread explains my view re ethernet cables:
I believe that different ethernet cables may cause music replay to sound different, due to alteration in the electrical noise (most likely RF) reaching the DAC, with some DACs prone to audible differences as a result, e.g through modulation effects. The degree of effect, and its audibility, is likely to vary according the network, the electrical environment, the streamer/DAC, the audio system, and the individual Against that, I believe that āburn-inā of cables used for hifi, ethernet or any othā¦
And additionally re interconnects:
Absolutely nothing, in my view. (Unless it has just been cryogenically treated and the crystal structure is returning to normal.) and what as for physical warm-up, in an interconnect even if very thin gauge, the warm up due to current will be less than the variation in room temperature from day to day. I believe it is smply getting used to it, or ear response changing, or sound memory unreliability, etc.
Very significant is that our ears can and sometimes do change. Iām not talking long term age-related deterioration, but from day to day, hour by hour, sometimes even minute by minute. Most particularly and demonstrable changes may be due to anything that restricts or alters equalisation of inner ear pressure but then there can also be the effect of varying tinnitus (even tinnitus at a low level that you donāt normally realise is there), or numbing effect of other sounds, etc. (That is quite apart from accuracy or otherwise of precisely remembering a sound, which is an additional limiting factor.) It is therefore quite meaningless to compare a sound today with a remembered sound at some time past, only direct A-B comparison of a āburnt-inā item with a new one being able to identify a difference reliably (and of course compared blind to remove psychological influences).
And to be conclusive proof rather than indicative, but of course going further than any individual would ever do, it would be necessary to be sure any audible difference is not due to factors unrelated to the āburn-inā, such as differences between the two when new - possibly not an issue with cables, but potentially so with electronics (e.g. due to component value variability even within tolerance), probably dictating a need for more than one each of the burnt in and virgin items.
Of courseā¦ I hope that didnāt come out sounding like criticism.
My only point, I suppose, is that if you can get it posted out for a trial (rather than go on a 1,000 km round trip) it may be worth it if you find that, much to your surprise, you prefer how it sounds. Iām not in the Melco camp and have already popped down the EtherRegen rabbit hole. Whatās more Iām going to stay there, not because I donāt think there may be something better around, but because I am fairly sure that a new wave of better similar products will be appearing in the coming year/s. It may be why I donāt try the external clocks. But if I wasnāt already an EtherRegen owner, Iād certainly try both of the switches if I could do so easily.
Hi Michael!
No worries, I did not take you suggestion as criticism.
Iām of the same opinion as you. Without testing I can off course not know if I would prefer the Melco or ER + external PS. It would probably be a close call!
Some say you need ER + external PS + external clock to reach the performance level of Melco S100 + stock PS. Others are saying that they prefer ER + stock PS to Melco + stock PS. My conclusion from this is that they have similar performance. You can try different PS (on both) or different clocks (on ER) to extract the little extra but both could work as very good switches. No doubt!
My point is that in the ādigital domainā itās not possible to alter the frequency response i.e. ācolourā the sound. One or the other would probably not sound āricherā or āleanerā as can happen in the āanalogue domainā. A digital signal can only be cleaner and you can then think that one is more analogue since you are able to hear more details (or whatever). System matching should not be as important as for analogue products.
I understand that you are not interested in trying the Melco S100. You have already made your choice and Iām sure that you could reach similar performance if choosing either the Melco S100 or ER. The ER + external PS is good enough without an external clock so I fully understand that you prefer to not look into that area. Three boxes or more for a switch is hard to digestā¦
I also think that there may be something better around but I do not think that it will take years but rather weeksā¦
/Marcus
A digital signal can only be cleaner and you can then think that one is more analogue since you are able to hear more details (or whatever).
Iām not sure itās as simple as that - I recall one description of the effect of ground-plane RF modulation in a DAC due to RF superimposed on the digital stream, causing noise floor modulation of the analogue signal, which apparently some people perceive as sounding ābrighterā, And RF or other electrical noise superimposed on the digital signal entering a susceptible DAC is precisely the sort of thing that network cables and switches may alter, either adding, blocking or filtering selectively, so potentially affecting perceived ābrightnessā - and to one person whichever the effect, apparently greater or reduced ābrightnessā may sound better, to another it may sound worse!
Iām not sure itās as simple as that - I recall one description of the effect of ground-plane RF modulation in a DAC due to RF superimposed on the digital stream, causing noise floor modulation of the analogue signal, which apparently some people perceive as sounding ābrighterā, And RF or other electrical noise superimposed on the digital signal entering a susceptible DAC is precisely the sort of thing that network cables and switches may alter, either adding, blocking or filtering selectively, so potentially affecting perceived ābrightnessā - and to one person whichever the effect, apparently greater or reduced ābrightnessā may sound better, to another it may sound worse!
You may very well be correct, IB.
Maybe the digital signal can carry noise into the analogue domain and alter the frequency response somehow. I have no ideaā¦
If looking in the digital domain in isolation it should not be possible to alter the frequency response, i.e. ācolourā the sound (as far as I understand). In the analogue domain, on the other hand, frequency response can be altered giving a āhouse soundā from certain hifi brands (as an example).
I have done a few tests myself and also attended demos of switches and Ethernet cables. Every time my experience have been that the ābetterā product have given a cleaner signal without altering the frequency response. I have heard less ānoiceā, been able to ālook deeper into the musicā, heard more micro details, singer āmore in the roomā and so on. All signs of a ācleanerā signal with less distortion. All this without altering the sound āsignatureā of the system. But that is only my own experienceā¦
Be mindful that listening more intently/analytically may often give the impression that something has changed: improvements should be obvious rather than suggestive.
I think you are rightā¦ the whole rf thing is critical especially on the ethernet chainā¦I still think there is allot learnā¦ but I also think significant progress has been madeā¦ in the last 18 monthsā¦with resulting digital systems sounding fantastic.
but I also think significant progress has been madeā¦ in the last 18 monthsā¦with resulting digital systems sounding fantastic.
I think it goes back a little further in some quartersā¦
It should also be noted that because no concensus has been reached here, the accounts could be considered merely anecdotal.
improvements should be obvious rather than suggestive.
DorianAnatolios,ā¦ Here in our group,.if we are two,three or four,or more who shall listening.
Well,.then I usually hear in 5-10 seconds if it is better or worse.
Sometime I get insecure,.and need to repeat the song one more time from the beginning.
But usually I hear right away,.what is better or worse.
And then I have to sit and wait for the other peopleās experiences and conclusions,.because they have to listen longer.
It may sound a bit like a ābesserwisserā I knowš,.but I have been dealing with music-system installation and āspeaker-tunningā etc,etc.
As well as evaluations and testing of hi-fi-stuff for many decades.
So I should have learned something,I think .
As an example:
Just until the end of October 2019,.I have installed around 100 Cisco-switches in 100 different music-systems,now there have become a few more .
And then you get a unique experience of how,.for example,different ehternet/streaming-cables work in different environments.
It is with that experience in the background,.which has made me react āa littleā negatively,to the now hopefully forgotten concept ofā¦āFully Qualifiedā .
Stay safeā¦
/Pederš
the accounts could be considered merely anecdotal.
100% Dorian, its all anecdotal, different systems, different ears/brains & different music mean it cannot be anything else but.
Some greater percentage of agreement on something is indicative, but thats as good as it can get.