UPnP and Wi-fi Issues

I’m having trouble with the Naim app (Android) and my home network. My current Wi-Fi setup uses a Netgear Orbi router and satellite mesh network. I can’t run everything from one router within my house, due to poor Wi-Fi transmission. Using the mesh network, Wi-Fi is strong throughout the house, and I’m using a wired backhaul between the router and satellite. I’m experiencing very slow response times when browsing UPnP servers, specifically using Synology media server, and Minimserver, running on the Synology NAS. Due to other home networking tasks, my NDX and Synology NAS need to be connected to the router and the satellite respectively.

When browsing the media servers using the manual buttons on the NDX, response times are near immediate. When the Naim app is used, however, I experience delays of up to 30 seconds, often more than 10 seconds, after browsing for music on the media server – basically its almost unusable. I have tried other UPnP apps on the phone, but I lose gapless playback on the NDX, so they are not an option either. Once I eventually get to select the music on the Naim app, playback is faultless. I’ve tried turning many Wi-Fi settings on and off in the router, but have yet to find the root of the problem. So my first question, is are there any particular settings that I should be paying attention to on the Orbi that would enable me to fix this, or any diagnostic approaches people are aware of to try to work out what’s going on?

The situation is made even more intriguing, when replacing the Orbi router and satellite, with an Asus mesh network router and satellite. In that configuration, the app browses the media servers almost instantly, perhaps with a second or two delay occasionally. The obvious answer would be to ditch the Orbi mesh, but in most other regards they are a better fit for my Wi-Fi network than the older ASUS routers.

I may just be having the timing issues referred to here, NAIM App - UPNP Server not found, but I’ve been unable to confirm that. The Orbi’s don’t support IGMP snooping so changing settings related to that isn’t an option. As far as I can see, I only have one DHCP server on the network.

Timing link referred to in the final paragraph here

How does the main Orbi router connect to the Internet? If you are using a router supplied by the Internet provider you need to run it in modem mode and not router mode, otherwise you will have double NAT that may be causing your issues. If you can’t turn it into modem mode set the Orbi into Access Point mode and turn the Wi-Fi off in the ISP router.

Also ensure the Orbi are running the latest firmware by checking on the Netgear site as the check in the router web interface often does not show up new firmware.

Thanks @XMB, I’m on Virgin, and the router is in modem mode. I’m also running the latest firmware on the Orbi.

Is the orbi in AP or router mode?
I have a similar system, a orbi RBR 50 + a backhauled satellite, about 20 devices connected via 3 switches including a Synology NAS and a NDX2 and I have never experienced this delay browsing my library via Synology media server or Asset.BTW you can try to see where is the problem in your network using a Synology integrated app called EZ internet. Start this program in DSM and it will show you some network issues.

Thanks @Peppo62, my RBR50 is in router mode. I tried EZ Internet and everything is green apart from ‘Checking network environment’ which displays a red triangle, but offers no explanation as to why there is an issue. I tried dhcploc and that only displays one DCHP server on my network.

:+1: I don’t know if it could be a problem within the Naim app. I have the IOS version and it works just fine,but I red here on the forum that there are some issues with the Android version. Anyway hope you will fix it!!

@Peppo62, are you using your RBR50 in AP mode? If so, what router are you using?

No .I use it in router mode. Btw I’ve disabled both NAT and. DHCP in my ISP modem/router to avoid any conflict between it and Orbi

Hmm, perhaps its an Android/Naim app issue then with the Orbi router - my Virgin router is in modem mode, so NAT and DCHP should be off…

Really don’t know. I don’t use Android devices so no idea about it :pensive:

A quick update for anyone who comes searching for similar information. Having tried everything I could think of in the Orbi router settings, I was still seeing very poor response times from the UPnP server in the Naim android app. Wireshark didn’t provide any answers I could interpret as indicating a particular issue, but that may just be my ignorance!

I reverted to an Asus mesh setup using two RT-AC68U’s and experience almost instantaneous responses.

I can only conclude that the mix of Orbi mesh, the Naim Android app and UPnP is not a good mixture!

The fatal issue with the Netgear Orbi is that it does not support IGMP snooping, so it causes the problem of discovery as you are having now.

To work around around the issue, you will need a Cisco switch or any unmanaged switch that supports IGMP snooping, and you can hook both the NDX and a Netgear device to the same switch.

If the delay is the time it takes for the UPnP server to appear on the Android device… then it is highly likely it is an interoperability issue between your Android device and your Orbi wifi product.
The options are to check if there is a later bug fixed firmware for your wifi or Android device, replace your wifi product (can you get a refund) , try a different Android device or try an iOS device.
This interoperability issue may also affect slow navigation performance.
There are some very low level wifi / framing timing issues which can affect some Android implementations with some wifi implementations when the application on the wifi client is trying to communicate in a certain way and also undertake SSDP based discovery resulting in discarded wifi data.

If it is this bug, then the fact of supporting IGMP snooping (group filtering) is moot, as we are talking about handling the UPnP SSDP group so we don’t need that filtered. IGMP snooping on wifi simply prevents sending not required group traffic on the wifi which otherwise would reduce overall throughput performance.

It is best to resolve, as these methods are increasingly used in home network applications other than Naim, home automation for example.

I know it doesn’t help, but in the past I have had nothing but grief from ASUS products and their implementation of certain network protocols which is why I don’t use them now. However here you might have more luck in using an iOS device with your ASUS wifi product.

I always had issues with Netgear routers wifi and my android phone for Roon control. As soon as I switched to using Unifi products it all just worked and have had no issues since with multiple Android devices.

Thanks @Simon-in-Suffolk, really appreciate the detailed response. I’ve tried several android devices with up to date firmware (admittedly all Samsung), but that didn’t solve the issue. I don’t have any iOS devices and if the issues between Android and the Netgear may cause other network/device issues in future with other hardware, I think I need to consign the Netgear to other duties - sadly its beyond return to supplier.

My ASUS mesh is working reasonably well with Android/Synology NAS/NDX using my mesh networking scenario in the initial post, so I’m sticking with that for now. If I do any network upgrades in future this scenario is going to be the first one I test, so I can return the product if it doesn’t handle SSDP discovery well.

What networking vendors have you had more success with?

Thanks @CrystalGipsy, do you use your Unifi products in a mesh configuration? It was this that significantly amplified the problems I was having on my network.

The Ubiquiti Unifi products and BT Whole Home seem to work well, the latter being more plug and play for the technophobe.
But if the issue is purely with Android device handling multicast ( as used by UPnP and a lot of home automation) it might not change things, but if more interoperability issues it may help.

Remember ‘mesh‘ can mean many things in the consumer space, in my opinion it’s more a marketing term rather than technical… the Ubiquiti handles wireless and wired uplinks, and does load balancing between nodes/access points, so effectively is ‘meshing’.
The key thing is ensuring the access points operate as an extended SSID and cooperate with each other… usually managed singularly.
This functionality itself is separate to the issues you have experienced.